# I don't understand holocaust denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963 "2017-03-11T23:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/21 "2017-03-12T00:50:25Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Modern Nazi would have a hard time recruiting new members if the pitch was “We hate every unwhite person ever becuase of, …like reasons and stuff. Oh! And we endorse genocide as well as regular murder too!” > > When the real pitch is " we’re just regular people who are proud of our heritage, if you don’t feel like you fit in the world maybe you could find a place you finally feel comfortable in right here with us." > > Hate doesn’t sell to the masses, but acceptance damn sure does. Well, either they hate Jews or they don’t. If they don’t, then that’s not really bad thing, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/22 "2017-03-12T00:50:36Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > The first thing I don’t get is the hostile reaction to so-called holocaust denial. I suppose because it is a step down the path to downplay and then forget. And when we have that, we tend to repeat things we should not. > [@](#): > > Suppose someone said, "Hey, everyone! I have evidence that it wasn’t 6,000,000 jews that died. It was only 600,000. Someone slipped in an extra 0 by mistake. " One quite understandable response to that would be “Whew! What a relief! We’re so glad that 5.4 million Jews did NOT die.” Another is, “Would that it were true. But unfortunately it is only wishful thinking. Unfortunately.” The response “How dare you suggest that less jews died!” is just weird. Never mind sending people to jail for it. Knowing people who did survive, only to find that their entire family and extended family did not, i can understand their anger at someone trying to twist it around so it becomes something that was not so bad. Yes, they would be thrilled if you could show them some place in the world that 5 million people were secretly shipped away to and left to live happily, you would have a biblical flood of human tears of joy, but we know very well that it is not true. It is not even wishful thinking, it’s just a mean lie. Do you ever read the context in which it is denied? Some 12 to 14 million people vanished from existence in that nightmare, approx 6 million of them simply for being Jewish. A horribly vulgar amount of them being children, women, and elderly people. > [@](#): > > Then there is the other side: modern Nazis. If the historical Nazis hated Jews–which is certainly true whether or not they killed them—why would there be a correlation between holocaust denial and Nazi sympathy? There does seem to be a correlation there. At least some of the Holocaust deniers are Nazi sympathizers. If you were a modern Nazi and shared the view of the historical Nazi, wouldn’t you be PROUD of the killing of 6 million jews? Because that’s seriously an accomplishment. I would suppose if you were a modern Nazi, you would still enjoy living above ground? Running around and saying "Yes we did kill off 6 million Jews, XX gypsies, XX slovs, XX sickly or unwell persons, XX non heterosexual persons, etc would do very little to recruit new blood, and would do very much to incite the general population to do things to you even the police could not stop. > [@](#): > > Seems to me that a modern Nazi would be more likely to exaggerate the holocaust than diminish it. That is, if they hate Jews like their antecedents did. See above, i think they do enjoy living free and breathing. > [@](#): > > And shouldn’t it be Jews that, even if not agreeing with Holocaust deniers, would sympathize with the wishful thinking behind it? Shouldn’t it be Jews who would most want fewer Jews to have been killed? I wish many people i have know had not been killed, it would be nice to wake up and find it was only a bad dream, but that is only wishful thinking, and it does nothing to bolster my sympathies for the killers, how can you think it would? If i murder your entire family, i mean every distant relation you can trace, and i leave only you. Then i spout off that only 3 or 4 people in your family died, and they died of TB at that. Well, you know better, don’t you? You know they are all gone, all of them dead. Are you going to sympathize with me at all? Are you going to allow me to try to downplay the events and tuck them out of site? No, you are going to be venomously angry are you not? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/23 "2017-03-12T00:52:33Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > And that’s precisely what I don’t understand. What part of this statement did you not understand? > [@Kimstu](#): > > People who try to deny well-attested tragic events are at best delusional fuckwits and at worst malevolent revisionists. They do not get the benefit of the doubt just because it would be nice if the transparent lies they’re peddling could somehow actually be true. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/24 "2017-03-12T00:53:50Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > [Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/non-jewish-victims-of-the-holocaust) > > 5 millions non Jewish people were a also killed during the holocaust , 11 millions people were killed . :mad: ☹ True, and usually mentioned at every Holocaust remembrance ceremony I’ve been too, where, while Jews usually sponsor, them, and Jewish music and prayers and usually used, there is lots of English, and everyone is welcome. The Mourner’s Kaddish is even recited in English at the end, and everyone is invited to join for “those who were left with no one to mourn them, and those who died honoring G-d.” I don’t stand every single week, but I stand on the birthdays of my aunt’s brothers to honor people who died with no one to say kaddish for them. They had lots of people to say kaddish for them, but the people they died with may not have. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/25 "2017-03-12T00:56:48Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > Well, either they hate Jews or they don’t. If they don’t, then that’s not really bad thing, is it? You really don’t understand? HATE does not sell well. HATE is not usually a good tool to indoctrinate. It’s too open abrupt and vulgar, in most cases anyways. You sell the acceptance, you sell the image, you sell what the person is looking for, then you slowly bring them into the HATE, little by little in unassuming bite size pieces. Dress it up as harmless at first until you have finished painting the picture in their minds that you wish them to see, once you have done that, then they will accept the HATE. Even Hitler had to begin by spoon feeding it at first. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/26 "2017-03-12T00:58:15Z")
Holocaust denial isn’t much about numbers. If you were to say “there has been only 3 millions Jews killed”, you might attract some flak, but you wouldn’t be an holocaust denier. On the other hand, if you were to say : “10 millions Jews died, not 6, but it was an unfortunate result of (causes), and there has never been a deliberate genocide”, you’d be one. Holocaust deniers typically deny that Jews were purposefully killed. That said, given things like the moon hoax and such, I’m not convinced at all that all holocaust deniers are neo-nazis or sympathetic to the Nazi regime. I would expect such an event to attract the attention of a lot of conspiracy theorists even if there wasn’t a single neo-nazi, or even simply antisemite, in existence. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/27 "2017-03-12T01:09:56Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > At least some of the Holocaust deniers are Nazi sympathizers. Don’t get hung up on who can be called a “Nazi sympathizer”. All Holocaust deniers (defined as those who persistently deny the major events of the Holocaust and the motives of the killers) are _anti-Semites_. To my knowledge, every single prominent, dedicated Holocaust denier, from David Irving down the rest of the list, has a history of virulent anti-Semitic beliefs. Since anti-semitism has become severely unfashionable among decent people due to the Holocaust, deniers hope that if they can cast doubt on what happened, people will be more receptive to their nauseatingly bigoted message. **Kimstu** had a good analogy to those who pretend slavery wasn’t all that bad. It’s a vile pretense that racists hope will allow them to slither back into public acceptance. > [@TGWATY](#): > > First, I have not looked into any of this carefully or deeply. It’s high time that you did. [Some](http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/Notable%20Holocaust%20deniers) [reading](https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007272) to get you started. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/28 "2017-03-12T01:17:01Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > The first thing I don’t get is the hostile reaction to so-called holocaust denial. Suppose someone said, "Hey, everyone! I have evidence that it wasn’t 6,000,000 jews that died. It was only 600,000. Someone slipped in an extra 0 by mistake. " One quite understandable response to that would be “Whew! What a relief! We’re so glad that 5.4 million Jews did NOT die.” Another is, “Would that it were true. But unfortunately it is only wishful thinking. Unfortunately.” It’s not “so-called holocaust denial;” it’s real and deliberate denial of these deaths that really happened. People don’t deny the Holocaust for innocent reasons, by and large. (I guess if you want to call people who’ve been duped “innocent” you can.) > [@](#): > > The response “How dare you suggest that less jews died!” is just weird. Never mind sending people to jail for it. The criminalizing of Holocaust denial is part of the criminalizing of Nazism. It is a controversial legal principle, and there are arguments against it, but is it so hard to understand the reasoning behind it? > [@](#): > > Then there is the other side: modern Nazis. If the historical Nazis hated Jews–which is certainly true whether or not they killed them—why would there be a correlation between holocaust denial and Nazi sympathy? There does seem to be a correlation there… Color added. The Nazis killed them. This is not like belief in God or something where Just Asking Questions is a fun way to kill time. Anyway, the denial is not sincere; it is disingenuous. It aims to make Nazism more respectable. > [@](#): > > And shouldn’t it be Jews that, even if not agreeing with Holocaust deniers, would sympathize with the wishful thinking behind it? Shouldn’t it be Jews who would most want fewer Jews to have been killed? It is not wishful thinking, though. It’s a lie. I completely see why someone would take it as insulting the dead. Deborah Lipstadt’s “Denying the Holocaust” is a good primer on the subject for the curious. I’d suggest the OP get some facts and context under their belt. Holocaust denial is not a matter of minor disagreements about facts, nor is it “identity politics” or “PC overreach” or anything like that. Take it seriously. [Denying the Holocaust - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_Holocaust) ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/29 "2017-03-12T01:23:33Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > I almost included this as a third question in the OP. Why are those non-Jewish deaths not controversial. Really, no one seems to care about them one way or the other. In whose mind? Who does not care about them? The Holocaust is the Jewish part of the exterminations, but don’t take that to mean that no one acknowledges or cares about the non Jewish victims of the mass murders. The Holocaust is a specific thing that was never finished. It’s goal was the complete extinction of all Jews everywhere, Hitler expected to exterminate all 11 million Jews in Europe, and the Jews in other areas would follow as the Nazi forces captured them. His Final Solution was that no Jew would live anyplace on planet Earth. That is the Holocaust, it thankfully was not completed. Now the others that were killed I will just use some WIKI numbers, don’t consider this a complete list 2 million ethnic Poles 6 million Soviet citizens 2 million Soviet POW’s 1.5 million Gypsies 200,000 handicapped and mentally retarded Germans 5,000 – 15,000 homosexuals YES they count, YES someone cares, prayers are said for them, tears are shed for them. Many of them died with no one but a Jew to stand beside them and die with them. They are simply not referred to as Holocaust because they are not part of that particular plan. They were still unjustly murdered and their deaths are no less, do not be confused to think so. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/30 "2017-03-12T02:29:37Z")
Perhaps relevant is that Holocaust Denial is basically a conspiracy theory, I read in a recent book on psychology that studies have been conducted that seem to show that people who are prone to believe in conspiracy theories don’t pick and choose between theories they believe and ones they disbelieve, they believe _all_ of them. So for a person of that mindset Holocaust Denial is just one more conspiracy to heap onto the plate. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/31 "2017-03-12T02:54:29Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > [Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/non-jewish-victims-of-the-holocaust) > > 5 millions non Jewish people were a also killed during the holocaust , 11 millions people were killed . :mad: ☹ You may not realize it (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt) but statements like this are constantly parroted by the neo-Nazis, anxious to draw as much attention away from Jewish deaths as possible. Of course many millions of non-Jews were murdered also by the Nazis and as **RivkahChaya** posted above they are constantly remembered in the prayers of Jews and of other faiths. None of this takes away from the fact that there was something different about the massacre of the Jews. This was a conscious attempt to wipe them from the face of the Earth, to consign a whole people to history. Small wonder that it left such a scar on civilization and in the hearts of the Jewish people. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/32 "2017-03-12T03:11:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > When somebody tells outright lies about well-known and well-established facts, the natural response is outrage at the lie rather than disappointment that the lie turned out not to be true. We already **knew** the lie wasn’t true from the very moment that the liar uttered it. I was working from the assumption that they’re not lying, that they actually believe it. > [@](#): > > :dubious: Well, that cat’s out of the bag, at least. Would you also assume that African-Americans who resent attempts to deny the existence of slavery are trying to play up slavery for sympathy? I haven’t assumed anything. I’m asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/33 "2017-03-12T03:14:43Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > You really don’t understand? > > HATE does not sell well. > HATE is not usually a good tool to indoctrinate. > It’s too open abrupt and vulgar, in most cases anyways. > > You sell the acceptance, you sell the image, you sell what the person is looking for, then you slowly bring them into the HATE, little by little in unassuming bite size pieces. > Dress it up as harmless at first until you have finished painting the picture in their minds that you wish them to see, once you have done that, then they will accept the HATE. > > Even Hitler had to begin by spoon feeding it at first. This is the first thoughtful attempt to answer one of my questions head on. This is a good answer to my question about Nazi-sympathizers would want to downplay the holocaust. Thank you. This makes sense. I’m not very good at psychology. I’m a math/science/computer nerd and I don’t relate to people very well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/34 "2017-03-12T03:22:45Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > I was working from the assumption that they’re not lying, that they actually believe it. […] > I haven’t assumed anything. Make up your mind, have you assumed something or haven’t you? In any case, I think the question here is **why** you’re assuming that Holocaust deniers are acting in good faith. In general, which do you think is more likely: 1. that a naive but well-meaning person who’s simply never had an opportunity to find out the basic facts of the Holocaust has been unknowingly misled by historical revisionism, or 2. that an antisemitic conspiracy theorist is deliberately embracing historical revisionism because it makes Jews look like unscrupulous opportunists lying about their wrongs in order to drum up sympathy? ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/35 "2017-03-12T03:23:36Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > It’s not “so-called holocaust denial;” it’s real and deliberate denial of these deaths that really happened. People don’t deny the Holocaust for innocent reasons, by and large. (I guess if you want to call people who’ve been duped “innocent” you can.) People get called Holocaust Deniers just for questioning whether gas chambers were used or not, vs deaths by gunshot, starvation, etc. Just questioning whether Hitler knew about it and intended it, even you agree with all the other facts and numbers, will get you lumped in with “Holocaust Deniers”. Hence the “so-called”. You don’t have to actually deny the holocaust happened to be called a Holocaust Denier. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/36 "2017-03-12T03:26:37Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > This is the first thoughtful attempt to answer my question head on. Thank you. This makes sense. Charlie sold it, charlie sold hate wholesale. But he wrapped it up in love and family and peace and jesus. And once he had them hook line and sinker, he had them stab a pregnant girl to death. And they stabbed her friends to death, and they stabbed an old lady to death while her husband died in the next room. And they believed it, oh did they believe it, packaged it up all real nice Charlie did. I don’t think you will find much pity for Charlie’s family though ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/37 "2017-03-12T03:29:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Make up your mind, have you assumed something or haven’t you? > > In any case, I think the question here is **why** you’re assuming that Holocaust deniers are acting in good faith. In general, which do you think is more likely: > > 1. that a naive but well-meaning person who’s simply never had an opportunity to find out the basic facts of the Holocaust has been unknowingly misled by historical revisionism, or > > 2. that an antisemitic conspiracy theorist is deliberately embracing historical revisionism because it makes Jews look like unscrupulous opportunists lying about their wrongs in order to drum up sympathy? Seriously? Number 1 is much more likely based on my experience. Just compare it to the the people who tout other conspiracies like the faked moon landings or the 911 truthers or any number of other ideas. There are people who believe — or used to not so long ago — that the government was in cahoots with aliens to allow them to abduct millions of Americans in exchange for their advanced technology. People believe this stuff, not only sincerely but strongly, and much more. It’s more rare that people pretend to believe things for ulterior motives. It happens but just not as often. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/38 "2017-03-12T03:39:28Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > Seriously? Number 1 is much more likely based on my experience. Just compare it to the the people who tout other conspiracies like the faked moon landings or the 911 truthers or any number of other ideas. Really? You imagine that most of those people really never had an opportunity to learn the basic facts of, e.g., the moon landings or 9/11? That sounds like complete bullshit to me. When people of reasonable intelligence and education levels deliberately reject well-established historical facts in order to embrace some conspiracy theory, it’s generally because they **want** to believe the conspiracy theory. Not because they simply couldn’t have known any better. So I trust you can now see why most people who are not Holocaust deniers don’t have much tolerance for the promulgation of irresponsible bullshit based on wanting to see Jews as sympathy-grubbing conniving liars and Nazis as not really all that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/39 "2017-03-12T03:45:35Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > \ > Even Hitler had to begin by spoon feeding it at first. You just HAD to Godwinize this thread, didn’t you? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/40 "2017-03-12T03:46:09Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > People get called Holocaust Deniers just for questioning whether gas chambers were used or not, vs deaths by gunshot, starvation, etc. Just questioning whether Hitler knew about it and intended it, even you agree with all the other facts and numbers, will get you lumped in with “Holocaust Deniers”. You seem to be a bit confused about what the term “Holocaust denier” means. It doesn’t apply only to people who assert that the Holocaust never happened at all. People are Holocaust deniers if they challenge well-documented facts about the Holocaust with no credible evidence to back up their challenges. Hitler’s genocidal intentions and aims are among those well-documented facts, so yes, people who claim that they’re an open question count as Holocaust deniers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963.md?page=3)