# I don't understand hyphens **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007 "2014-03-18T15:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/21 "2014-03-18T18:14:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I can’t think of any other hyphen or dash uses–can anyone else? I can’t. But I’ll ask my friend Mr. Cholmondley-Warner about it… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/22 "2014-03-18T18:21:11Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > I tend to use doubles because I started on a typewriter. Word changes them automagically for you, which I find rather annoying. My understanding is that, if you were writing a book on a typewriter, you’d use double hyphens in your manuscript to indicate em-dashes, which the publisher would typeset and print as actual em-dashes in the published book. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/23 "2014-03-18T19:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] The Chicago manual advises never to use spaces around dashes (except for an odd nitpick or two). Other sources would tell you to use spaces around an em dash. That’s pure style, not a rule. [/QUOTE] Anyone know what stylesheet Outlook was built around? If you type \\\\\ or \\\\\, Outlook will autoformat that to an em dash and leave the spaces around the dash. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/24 "2014-03-18T19:09:07Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > Anyone know what stylesheet Outlook was built around? If you type \\\\\ or \\\\\, Outlook will autoformat that to an em dash and leave the spaces around the dash. That’s why you don’t type spaces before or after. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/25 "2014-03-18T19:11:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I was always taught that en dashes had spaces but em dashes don’t. If I’m substituting with hyphens, I use a single hyphen surrounded by spaces for an en dash and two hyphens without spaces for an em dash. > > Did you mistype–or was I misinformed? That’s why I specified the Chicago manual. Other style guides may have their own variations. There is no right or wrong; you just have to be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/26 "2014-03-18T19:31:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Actually, the best use is “35 to 40,” avoiding confusion with subtraction. What reader in their right mind would conclude that “35-40F” might indicate subtraction? If you want to really be a stickler, the “minus sign” is technically yet another glyph closer in size to the en-dash than the hyphen. Anyhow, typically, for ranges, the answer for most American style books I’m familiar with is the en-dash, so the second of **Inner Stickler** ’s choices. But it really is pretty pointless and arbitrary. You could do fine with just a hyphen. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/27 "2014-03-18T19:34:19Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > What reader in their right mind would conclude that “35-40F” might indicate subtraction? Maybe not in that case, but in some cases it could be confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/28 "2014-03-18T19:57:57Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I just want to point out that they’re an utterly stupid addition to punctuation. Commas, apostrophes, quotation marks, colons, semicolons, the various terminal punctuation all have useful functions. Nothing em or endashes do can’t be done by a hyphen and vice versa. I agree concerning the endash. The emdash is useful and distinct from a hyphen or endash. But it bugs me that we have two symbols that look identical (to me, in certain fonts) and are supposed to mean different things. That’s just silly. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, there’s a possibility of confusion between the two. > > For instance: > > He killed the man-eating shark. > > He killed the man—eating shark. > > You could just use two en dashes, but that’s harder to see and ugly and stupid. We put alot more thought into fonts—we can handle two kinds of dash thingies. Your example fails to make your point. The first one looks correct, but apparently you’re using a hyphen (which is fine with me). The second is the wrong punctuation mark. Looks wrong, is wrong. I see no need to distinguish between a hyphen separating parts of a word with an endash separating two words to make a compound modifier. In fact, I’ve lived my entire life without ever noticing the difference between a hyphen and an endash, without any loss of ability to parse sentences or to communicate effectively. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Maybe not in that case, but in some cases it could be confusing. Any case that’s confusing when using a hyphen instead of an endash would be confusing regardless of whether you use a hyphen or endash because the two look the same! It’s just plain silly to have two characters with the same appearance. It’s even sillier to have two characters that often look the same but are sometimes rendered a little differently. (Of course, when multiple languages are involved, it can be impossible to avoid, so please ignore that case.) I’ve long been annoyed at the morons who designed computer typefaces where the lower-case letter ‘l’ looks just like the digit ‘1’, or where it looks just like the capital letter ‘I’. Yeah, I realize that there’s a historical reason, but we should let mistakes of the past remain mistakes of the past except for special-purpose fonts for rendering historical documents or looking funky. Yet **most** fonts exhibit this idiocy! I’d hate to count the hours I’ve wasted thanks to this. And yes, it actually has cost time and effort, to me as an embedded systems programmer, believe it or not. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/29 "2014-03-18T20:03:11Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > The first one looks correct, but apparently you’re using a hyphen (which is fine with me). The second is the wrong punctuation mark. Looks wrong, is wrong. No, it isn’t–it just gives the sentence a different meaning, which is the point. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/30 "2014-03-18T20:13:31Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Your example fails to make your point. > > The first one looks correct, but apparently you’re using a hyphen (which is fine with me). The second is the wrong punctuation mark. Looks wrong, is wrong. No, it says he killed a man while eating a shark, or killed a man who was eating shark. Perhaps not a perfect example, but the point is that confusion between the two is possible. > [@](#): > > I see no need to distinguish between a hyphen separating parts of a word with an endash separating two words to make a compound modifier. In fact, I’ve lived my entire life without ever noticing the difference between a hyphen and an endash, without any loss of ability to parse sentences or to communicate effectively. As far as you know. > [@](#): > > It’s just plain silly to have two characters with the same appearance. It’s even sillier to have two characters that often look the same but are sometimes rendered a little differently. Maybe, but that’s an argument for a better em dash, not no em dash. > [@](#): > > I’ve long been annoyed at the morons who designed computer typefaces where the lower-case letter ‘l’ looks just like the digit ‘1’, or where it looks just like the capital letter ‘I’. Yeah, I realize that there’s a historical reason, but we should let mistakes of the past remain mistakes of the past except for special-purpose fonts for rendering historical documents or looking funky. Yet **most** fonts exhibit this idiocy! I’d hate to count the hours I’ve wasted thanks to this. And yes, it actually has cost time and effort, to me as an embedded systems programmer, believe it or not. How’s that square with when you said “It’s just plain silly to have two characters with the same appearance. It’s even sillier to have two characters that often look the same but are sometimes rendered a little differently.” ? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/31 "2014-03-18T20:18:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, it says he killed a man while eating a shark, or killed a man who was eating shark. Perhaps not a perfect example, but the point is that confusion between the two is possible. Ah, now I get it, though I stand by my statement that it’s a bad example. He killed a man – eating shark. The above sentence simply doesn’t pass muster. It’s a poor use of emdash. If anyone could come up with a **good** example where a hyphen and an em-dash both make sense but different meanings, and both good examples of communication, I’d be interested. But regardless, I agree that the emdash is useful. It’s the distinction between endash and hyphen that I find useless. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/32 "2014-03-18T20:20:41Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Maybe, but that’s an argument for a better em dash, not no em dash. As I said, I have no issues with the emdash. > [@](#): > > How’s that square with when you said “It’s just plain silly to have two characters with the same appearance. It’s even sillier to have two characters that often look the same but are sometimes rendered a little differently.” ? It’s perfectly consistent. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/33 "2014-03-18T20:21:22Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Ah, now I get it, though I stand by my statement that it’s a bad example. > > He killed a man – eating shark. > > The above sentence simply doesn’t pass muster. It’s a poor use of emdash. No it’s not. It’s a perfectly good use of em dash. It’s exactly how an em dash can be used. It’s not a great example of how it could be confused with an en dash, of course, but it’s still legit. > [@](#): > > If anyone could come up with a **good** example where a hyphen and an em-dash both make sense but different meanings, and both good examples of communication, I’d be interested. Perhaps you can see that there’s the possibility of confusion without needing a better example. Or perhaps someone else here can construct one. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/34 "2014-03-18T21:12:27Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > In fact, I’ve lived my entire life without ever noticing the difference between a hyphen and an endash, without any loss of ability to parse sentences or to communicate effectively. > > Any case that’s confusing when using a hyphen instead of an endash would be confusing regardless of whether you use a hyphen or endash because the two look the same! I think I first became aware of the difference when I was typing mathematical expressions in a font (Times New Roman?) where the hyphen is so short that it looks absolutely wrong as a minus sign. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/35 "2014-03-18T21:17:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No it’s not. It’s a perfectly good use of em dash. It’s exactly how an em dash can be used. It’s not a great example of how it could be confused with an en dash, of course, but it’s still legit. Not according to Poe, and I find I agree with Poe. It’s a terrible example of using a dash. C- work at best! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/36 "2014-03-18T21:20:19Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think I first became aware of the difference when I was typing mathematical expressions in a font (Times New Roman?) where the hyphen is so short that it looks absolutely wrong as a minus sign. > [@Learjeff](#): > > Not according to Poe, and I find I agree with Poe. It’s a terrible example of using a dash. C- work at best! And there’s a good example: I couldn’t tell for sure whether you meant “C-minus work” or just “C-level work.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/37 "2014-03-18T22:06:50Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Not according to Poe, and I find I agree with Poe. It’s a terrible example of using a dash. C- work at best! It was a perfectly legitimate–though perhaps not elegant without context–example. I know what I’m talking about–trust me. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/38 "2014-03-18T22:53:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > My understanding is that, if you were writing a book on a typewriter, you’d use double hyphens in your manuscript to indicate em-dashes, which the publisher would typeset and print as actual em-dashes in the published book. I think that’s right, and I’ve never had a keyboard that had an em-dash. I don’t know where I picked up using the double dash, probably when I was 17-18 and was first at college using an electric typewriter. I also remember using underlining because there were no italics. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/39 "2014-03-18T22:58:17Z")
Basic rule: hyphens join, dashed separate. Beyond that, most of the rules are style rules. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007/40 "2014-03-18T23:11:03Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Any case that’s confusing when using a hyphen instead of an endash would be confusing regardless of whether you use a hyphen or endash because the two look the same! Maybe in some fonts they do, but not in the fonts I routinely use. The en-dash is definitely longer than the hyphen, and the em-dash is longer still. Let’s see how they look in the font used on this message board. I’ll type a hyphen, en-dash and em-dash on successive lines: - – — In the font I’m typing in now, there’s a definite difference between all three that corresponds to what I wrote above. We’ll see what happens once I post this. (EDIT: Interesting. In the posted font, the en-dash isn’t noticeably longer than the hyphen…but the hyphen appears bolder than the en-dash! ???) > [@](#): > > It’s just plain silly to have two characters with the same appearance. It’s even sillier to have two characters that often look the same but are sometimes rendered a little differently. (Of course, when multiple languages are involved, it can be impossible to avoid, so please ignore that case.) But that’s a font-design issue, not a punctuation one…just like the example you go on to give. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-hyphens/684007.md?page=3)