# I don't understand men **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 2, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464 "2003-12-02T07:13:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/41 "2003-12-02T21:47:38Z")
Yeah. Get him drunk. I know that’s a horrible thing to say in this age of twelve-stepping, but _in vino veritas_, ferchrissake. And if I were you, I wouldn’t wait until the end of the evening to mention your attraction. If I were you, that’d mean acting like a total goon for the entire evening as I obsessed on dropping the bombshell, essentially prefacing the Big Speech with a demonstration of exactly how much of a perspiring shaking dork I could possibly be :). Some guys can pick up hints, but think about it this way: if he can pick up hints, he might be just as confused about it as you are. He may have no idea whether he’s reading you correctly. Be straightforward. Let him know you’re attracted to him. Either way, it’s best to be honest about this. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Stover9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Stover9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stover9)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/42 "2003-12-02T21:59:49Z")
Men are dumb. I know because I am one. I was great friends with a girl for many years…I eventually suspected she “liked” me more than that (especially when she became single), but never acted on it because I wasn’t real sure I wanted it to get serious (and worse yet, lose friendship)…regardless, we were drinking one night, she never left my side and was extremely touchy-feely all night…so we finally ended up kissing and more. She started coming over alot, and we’d be passionate on more than one occasion, but that’d be about it - nothing more. I still never proceeded with her in a relationship manner, and eventually she quit coming over. Six months later she’s engaged some new guy. 10 months later, I’m doing a reading in her wedding. We’re still great friends, but shit, I think I was an insensitive jerk now that I look back on it, and never meant to be or ever hurt any feelings. I would say something instead of potentially causing more emotional trauma than is necessary. Plus, if he says “no” - he’ll start thinking about it, and wondering, and might realize how great you really are to him. ---
**Author:** ![Pablito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@Pablito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pablito)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/43 "2003-12-02T22:32:38Z")
Go for it. As almost everyone else has suggested and as I can personally testify (having found out after the fact that some woman ‘liked me’), men usually don’t pick up on clues. On occasion, we may think about it, but guys who are at all uncertain or shy around women WON’T act on or respond to a clue. So please please please don’t be subtle or indirect or hinty or suggestive. Just tell him you like him, you think it would be fun to go out, and to pick you up at 7. At the end of the evening, if nothing has happened before then, be sure that someone kisses someone before you part. If he’s really clueless (and it sounds like he is) he may be thinking that since you initiated the date then it’s your responsibility to initiate the first kiss. Don’t depend upon him to do it or it may not get done. He’ll love it. Then be sure to write us back after you ask him out and let us know how it went. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![TheNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@TheNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheNerd)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/44 "2003-12-02T22:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*He already knows. The fact he’s not all over you like white on rice (friendly cuddling doesn’t count) is because he’s not interested. If he gets interested, you’ll know. \*\* **SnoopyFan** , you’re wrong. Here’s why: For six years, **PucksRaven** , you’ve been conditioning him to try not to think of you romantically/sexually. This has of course failed, being that he is a guy. What it has succeeded in doing is inhibiting him from making any overtures, or interpreting anything you do as romantically/sexually suggestive. To break through 6 years of such conditioning, you must be absolutely forthright. Tell him you’re interested in starting a relationship with him. No hints, no roundabout ways of talking (getting him or both of you drunk first is still fine). ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/45 "2003-12-02T22:39:29Z")
Something similar happened to me. Actually I started a thread about it a while back. There was this friend of mine who acted very interested in me, very flirty all the time, etc. All our friends thought he had the major hots for me but was too shy to say anything. A couple times there was some drunken kissing going on (he kissed me). At the beginning, I wasn’t really interested in him, but as I got to know him, I liked him more and more. Finally I decided I would tell him I was interested too… Well boy was I totally embarassed when he said he didn’t want to date me, because he didn’t want to ruin our friendship. I was so positive he would have responded favorably, or else I would have never said anything! Well I got over the embarassment and we stayed friends. It was a little awkward at first, but fine now. And I actually am glad that we never dated, because I realized later on that he just wasn’t right for me, and was much better off as a friend. So I would say go for it. The risk is worth knowing the truth instead of killing yourself worrying about how he feels. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/46 "2003-12-02T22:45:43Z")
I wasn’t fishing for sympathy, I was pointing out that this isn’t a good ‘hint,’ precisely because many women say it when they’re NOT hinting. So frequently, in fact, that it’s a cliché. His assumption is far more likely to be ‘Ah, she wants to bitch about guys’ than ‘Wait. I’m XXXX! We can mate!’ And if he is already kind of interested, the first assumption will probably irritate the #$\*!! out of him. Thus the measurable, testable differences thing with the hints. They must involve observably different behavior from non-hinting, beyond how she actually feels when she’s dropping them. 🙂 Avoiding the ‘big speech’ thing is more of a timing and attitude thing. You want to be direct without being dramatic. Squeezing it in at the end of a phone call might actually be easiest way to do it. Not a big fan of the whole ‘get him drunk’ course of action. What if he says ‘yes,’ but then changes his mind once he’s had a chance to sober up and think about it? Or, once sober, assumes he must be remembering it wrong? I mean, after all, you’re just friends, right? If nothing else, it almost guarantees it’s going to end up more awkward than it has to be. And deliberately getting someone drunk then asking them to make an important decision is ethically . . . kinda . . . well, contemptible is maybe too strong of a word, but it’s on the right track, anyway. – “But I’m all Millouse!” ---
**Author:** ![PucksRaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecd19e/32.png) [@PucksRaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PucksRaven)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/47 "2003-12-02T22:53:44Z")
Wow. I am overwhelmed by the response, thank you. My roommate also hangs out on these boards - she’s Obsidian, she’s had a few anti-work rants in the Pit - and said she’d pop on with her third party impressions when she has a moment. But I did want to add some stuff and get feedback. The cuddling we do is _not_ friendly. I’ve had several people tell me it’s “weird” and there’s a vibe. Obsidian can describe it better, maybe, since I’m used to it. Also, to those who suggest naked and beer- he’s seen me all but naked. When my friends have a party he sleeps in my bed and either wraps himself around me or completly cocoons himself in his blankets on the other side of the bed. I’ve worn everything from sweat pants and t-shirts to Victoria’s Secret’s latest nightie, to just underwear. And that’s not getting into strip poker matches. Like I said, we’re wierd. I have no intention of getting him drunk. For one thing it hasn’t worked in the past because if I drink I lose my nerve. And if I don’t drink he won’t because he feels bad that I’m the only one sober. I can see that by and large eveyone thinks I should just tell him. And I agree. I know the only way to get the answer is to ask the question. But what holds me back the most is that the worst case scenario is not that we will simply just go back to being friends. It’s that the friendship will change. I will need time to heal and get over him and that would mean no touching, no cuddling and hugging and joking around. I don’t know how to handle that. It’s very hard to start the conversation that could ruin your best friendship. Someone asked how old we are, I’m 22 and he’s 21. He’s in his last year of college in Oregon and I’m working as an Admin. Assistant in the California Bay Area. As far as I know he’s moving back here after school. He’s coming in on the 15th for Christmas break and I’m hoping to settle this during the break. I’ll keep you updated. If anyone has more insight please pass it along, the more people that tell me to do it the more confident I feel. And you’re making me laugh, as always. 🙂 And thank you all for the advice so far. ---
**Author:** ![Obsidian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/51bf81/32.png) [@Obsidian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obsidian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/48 "2003-12-02T23:01:48Z")
I offer the perspective of someone who knows them both (I’m the aforementioned roommate). **Puck** is home sick and over-summarized, if you ask me. For starters, he’s not a friend, he’s her best friend. On the list of people the hospital would call were she in an accident, it’s her mom, me, and then him. Also, friendly cuddling is a misnomer. If you saw them on the street (or in a restaurant, or at a party) you would SWEAR they were a couple. It’s the hand-holding, neck-rubbing, hair-sifting sort of PDA. Then attend family events. When he’s had one too many beers and crashes at our house, he sleeps in her bed. (We have a pull-out couch, btw). He told me once (while drunk) that ‘everyone’ thinks they’re sleeping together. Our mutual friends know they’re not, so I assume he’s talking about his other friends, family, co-workers, etc. When he comes home from school, he hugs her like a soldier coming home from war. They’ve been like this for years. Our friend group makes jokes about it, and for years they both swore themselves blue in the face that it was totally platonic. Not long after I joined the circle, I mentioned to **Puck** that I thought he was cute, would she mind. . .and she just about took my head off. That’s how we ended up here. He and I are friends. We talk. We’ve had several veiled conversations about this (usually while drinking), one in which he announced it would be too much to risk a friendship for a drunken hook-up, no matter how much one wanted it (which is why any variant of ‘get him drunk’ is not a good idea). He’s very protective of her. He also likes to interrogate me about her love life, but refuses to discuss his with her (he will with me). They’re younger than you guys probably picture (21 and 22). They met as teenagers and are now trying to sort themselves out as adults. We think he may have liked her when they first met, but she was oblivious. Now everything’s so blurry it makes sense to absolutely no one. I’ve had a similar situation in my love life lately, though much (much) less complicated. Puck’s guy keeps telling me to just jump him (my guy). He says, “You have to make the first move, if he’s anything like me, he’ll never open his mouth.” And I’m thinking, are we speaking in code now? Is this some kind of message to Puck? Or am I just over-reaching. I’m really tempted to just tell him the next time we’re alone—before I kill him. Or both of them. Or is that a bad idea? _On preview, I saw_\* Puck\*\* just posted. Eh, so we say things twice. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/49 "2003-12-02T23:13:00Z")
Any possibility that he’s gay and doesn’t know/accept it yet? ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/50 "2003-12-02T23:25:31Z")
Somebody needs to do something, so they don’t wind up having that, “WHAT?! I totally would’ve gone out with you!” conversation years down the road. Personal experience here. ---
**Author:** ![PucksRaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecd19e/32.png) [@PucksRaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PucksRaven)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/51 "2003-12-02T23:25:45Z")
ShibbOleth - I suppose anything is possible, but I highly doubt it. We haven’t even gotten into his awful, self destructive relationships that I have to hear about second hand from Obsidian. He’s never given any inclination of being gay and if he ever came out (my romantic notions aside) I would be stunned. ---
**Author:** ![LadyMack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@LadyMack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LadyMack)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/52 "2003-12-02T23:44:55Z")
Aha! Well, there you have it. You shouldn’t be to the point of sleeping in the same bed and doing nothing, until AFTER you’re married… 😃 Just. Ask. The. Guy. Already. ---
**Author:** ![Pablito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@Pablito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pablito)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/53 "2003-12-02T23:50:42Z")
After reading your recent posts (and Obsidian’s), it sounds like you already ARE a couple, you just aren’t having sex and haven’t admitted it to yourselves or each other. Since you sleep together sometimes, why don’t you start fooling around with him when you’re in bed together? Seems like that would be a very natural (and fun) way to break the ice. Ask him to give you a backrub or something, and then move in for the kill (if he doesn’t first). Or do some hugging and start gently kissing, nibbling, etc. I’m available if you need any practice. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/54 "2003-12-03T02:56:33Z")
We guys really don’t pick up on signals very well. But I’ve got to add that we frequently say the wrong thing in conversations, and kick ourselves later about it, when it’s too late. So don’t tell him how you feel. Come on to him. Kiss him. Take your best shot at seducing him. Don’t show up naked with a six-pack, that’s a little _too_ direct. But not by much. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/55 "2003-12-03T04:00:37Z")
Would a nice teddy and a bottle of wine be more discreet? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/56 "2003-12-03T04:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Secret Squirrel \* > \*\*OK, Men. As one of the clueless women of the world, I have to ask this: > > If **PucksRaven** were to show up naked and with beer, what guy is actually going to say “No!No!!! I don’t feel that way about you!” > > Seems to me that even if he didn’t - some crazy things may go on. Where does that leave the friendship then? \*\* I don’t know. Why don’t you get someone to show up at my door like that and I’ll get back to you on the results. As Sam Kinnison once put it, “_Ladies! Whatever it is you want, just tell us! WE’LL DO IT! WHATEVER IT IS! JUST TELL US!!!_” ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/57 "2003-12-03T05:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lockz \* > \*\*Would you mind if I grabbed this for a sig line? \*\* Wow, Today I am a bona fidel doper, someone wants to use a quote from me as a sig, "i would like to thank the academy… Lockz, feel free And I strongly disagree with the “get him drunk” crowd, this needs to be done sober (both of you). unclviny ---
**Author:** ![primesite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@primesite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/primesite)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/58 "2003-12-03T06:21:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LadyDragon \* > \*\* > You shouldn’t be to the point of sleeping in the same bed and doing nothing, until AFTER you’re married… > > \*\* 😃 😃 THAT WAS GREAT! (and unfortunately all too true) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/59 "2003-12-03T07:03:05Z")
**Puck** - I’ve had two similar situations in the past. Friends with whom I’d be playful and cuddly with, sleeping platonically in their beds, etc… Then one day I realize that I feel something more about these friends. And, yeah, it was very stressful thinking about making that leap from friend to lover. It is scary. Both situations ended up in a relationship, but both led to an amicable break-up. (Both because of circumstance/long-distance issues.) I remain good friends with both these girls and I do not at any moment regret having revealed my feelings by just outright kissing them. Call me a romantic, but I think the risks involved are outweighed by the reward. I did have one more experience which was met with outright rejection, but we also managed to maintain a healthy friendship. I’m not saying that my experiences will mirror this, but if the answer is not what you want, it’s not the end of the world or friendship. ---
**Author:** ![vandal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/858c86/32.png) [@vandal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vandal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464/60 "2003-12-03T07:18:01Z")
Just a total stab in the dark here, but… If the two of you are at a level where you’re able to hold hands, sift hair, and _rub necks_, and he still hasn’t made a move, then I would say he’s gay. You say he’s been in awful, self-destructive relationships? Shouldn’t that raise a flag? It probably means he’s not capable of connecting with a woman on an intimate level. He pushes them away when they try to get close. He is able to connect with you, **PucksRaven** , because you have never tried to be that woman. Although, now, since you have developed romantic feelings for him, and would like to bring those to fruition, he’ll most likely push you away, just like the others. So where does that leave you? Well, for starters, why not find out for sure if he is gay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-men/216464.md?page=4)