# I dont understand religion... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498 "2015-11-13T21:01:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/101 "2015-11-25T18:41:16Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What do you mean by this? What does it mean for a religion to be true? Does the deity it bases itself upon exist? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/102 "2015-11-25T19:50:31Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > First of all, let me take the opportunity to say that I have become increasingly convinced that **virtually any statement (positive, negative, or neutral) that anyone makes about religion as such—“Religion is this” or “Religion does that”—is, at best, a half-truth**. Religion is such a large and multi-faceted thing that it’s hard to say anything that is true about all of it. > [@Clothahump](#): > > I have to disagree with this. The one thing that is true about religions is that none of them are true. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What do you mean by this? What does it mean for a religion to be true? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does the deity it bases itself upon exist? There are religions that are not based upon a deity. I actually wanted to know what **Clothahump** meant by it. Depending on what **Clothahump** meant by “none of them are true,” the statement might be trivially true, or demonstrably false, or meaningless, or unsettlable assertion, or a statement that says something about the person making the statement rather than about religion itself (i.e. one thing that is true of all religions is that **Clothahump** doesn’t believe/adhere to any of them). But I’m leaning towards the view that **Clothahump** ’s post was a _non sequitur_, since my original statement was a statement about “religion,” not “religion_s_.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/103 "2015-11-25T21:13:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > There are religions that are not based upon a deity. I was using the standard [Merriam-Webster definition.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/104 "2015-11-25T21:55:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I actually wanted to know what **Clothahump** meant by it. > > Depending on what **Clothahump** meant by “none of them are true,” the statement might be trivially true, or demonstrably false, or meaningless, or unsettlable assertion, or a statement that says something about the person making the statement rather than about religion itself (i.e. one thing that is true of all religions is that **Clothahump** doesn’t believe/adhere to any of them). > > But I’m leaning towards the view that **Clothahump** ’s post was a _non sequitur_, since my original statement was a statement about “religion,” not “religion_s_.” **Czarcasm** has actually hit most of the highlights. The concept of religion is probably the single most harmful and damaging thing that we humans have ever dreamed up to inflict upon ourselves. It is a lie, nothing more than a massive con game. And it never ceases to amaze me how few people bother to ask the question, “So you want me to worship a god of some sort? Can you show proof of that god’s existence.” ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/105 "2015-11-25T22:32:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > And it never ceases to amaze me how few people bother to ask the question, “So you want me to worship a god of some sort? Can you show proof of that god’s existence.” That question wouldn’t make much of a difference. The proselytizer - be it a Taoist, a Sufi, or a Odinist - could openly admit that “yeah, no, sorry, we don’t really _do_ proof,” and only a vanishingly small group of potential converts would consider this a dealbreaker. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/106 "2015-11-26T04:08:41Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > That question wouldn’t make much of a difference. > > The proselytizer - be it a Taoist, a Sufi, or a Odinist - could openly admit that “yeah, no, sorry, we don’t really _do_ proof,” and only a vanishingly small group of potential converts would consider this a dealbreaker. Believers that I’m familiar with still rely heavily on a faith system. Proof is nice and everything, but it’s optional and not required. If it was solid, we would all accept it; but faith would no longer be. When proof is sometimes offered, it is evidence, but it’s of the weakest kind. Personal revelations are often so personal, they can’t even talk about it, so that goes nowhere quick. Holy writs, power of suggestion, peer pressure, testimonials and amusing anecdotes, things of this nature have great appeal. Not the kind of stuff that would be accepted in scientific papers, and legal courts wouldn’t think too much of most of it either. But in theological circles, this stuff is the gold standard of evidence and truth. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/107 "2015-11-26T04:11:04Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Yeah, I’m actually that conceited. > > I’m also lazy: > > [The incident](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7983327&postcount=2) > > [Some](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2693779&postcount=41) [musings](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9948817&postcount=49) [and](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9949463&postcount=51) [thoughts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306399) [and](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7765755&postcount=2) [discussion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10041269&postcount=40) on the subject thereof. > > If your interest is serious, click the links. I’m not sufficiently caffeinated to proselytize this morning. I read through all seven, and appreciate the time you put in to digging them all up. Perhaps you could have condensed it to one paragraph, but if that was easier for you, no problem. You talk about a lot of stuff, some of it quite personal in nature, but to briefly sum up the process in a nutshell, you talk about praying to a God you probably didn’t think was there at the time, getting up in the middle of the night writing things down, and after a long process, without being more specific of what the details were that were revealed, somehow this transformed you. You identify with theist and true believer, but I find that a bit ambiguous with the language you use on numerous occasions, and often agnostic would probably be more fitting particular since you set certain parameters on your true believer status of your own religion, and also admit that the ideas may not be any good, nor does it mean that there is a God. Nevertheless, you say it all makes sense to you now and you understand everything you prayed for the answers about, and that your God is falsifiable. How did you go about determining that? ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/108 "2015-11-26T09:41:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you just give us a basic rundown of the exercises, or a couple of examples? A small sample of what we might be getting into? [The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentragram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_banishing_ritual_of_the_pentagram) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/109 "2015-11-26T12:37:37Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > [The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentragram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_banishing_ritual_of_the_pentagram) _This_ is a ritual that will cause me, and others like me to believe in this otherworldly woo? Earlier, you said > [@thepillar](#): > > Atheists/Agnostics, in my opinion, are just lazy. I have on numerous occasions attempted to provide proof of the supernatural by suggesting that they personally carry out certain exercises that will leave them more than convinced about the existence of the spirit realm and the dynamics therein. All of them seem to never show an interest. Its as if they’re afraid that once they’ve verified the existence of the spiritual realm, their whole atheist beliefs will crumble around them and will now be forced to accept the obvious. Let me correct you: 1. We are not “lazy”, but we _do_ recognize a silly waste of time when we see it. 2. We are not “afraid”, but we _do_ recognize a silly waste of time when we see it. If crap like this is what convinced you that woo is real, then I release you from providing any further evidence, because your standards of evidence are too low to be useful in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/110 "2015-11-26T13:11:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If crap like this is what convinced you that woo is real, then I release you from providing any further evidence, because your standards of evidence are too low to be useful in the real world. As you were.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/111 "2015-11-26T13:24:24Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > **Czarcasm** has actually hit most of the highlights. > > The concept of religion is probably the single most harmful and damaging thing that we humans have ever dreamed up to inflict upon ourselves. It is a lie, nothing more than a massive con game. And it never ceases to amaze me how few people bother to ask the question, “So you want me to worship a god of some sort? Can you show proof of that god’s existence.” To be fair, I wasn’t exactly the brightest, most skeptical chap when I was 3 either. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/112 "2015-11-26T14:49:36Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > I read through all seven, and appreciate the time you put in to digging them all up. Perhaps you could have condensed it to one paragraph, but if that was easier for you, no problem. You talk about a lot of stuff, some of it quite personal in nature, but to briefly sum up the process in a nutshell, you talk about praying to a God you probably didn’t think was there at the time, getting up in the middle of the night writing things down, and after a long process, without being more specific of what the details were that were revealed, somehow this transformed you. You identify with theist and true believer, but I find that a bit ambiguous with the language you use on numerous occasions, and often agnostic would probably be more fitting particular since you set certain parameters on your true believer status of your own religion, and also admit that the ideas may not be any good, nor does it mean that there is a God. Good summary 🙂 FYI, there were a group of religious folks way back when who identified as “gnostics”. Their attitude was that people who believed stuff without question _did not know_, that blind belief of that sort was actually _agnostic_, and that it was the state of active questioning that constitutes _faith_ because you are confident that if you perpetually question stuff, the concepts that actually explain things will be the ones that survive all that perpetual requestioning. Hence _gnostic_, knowing rather than agnostic, “not knowing”. I’m not a gnostic in the 1st century sense of being a Christian with their specific batch of beliefs and stuff, but I share that belief about knowledge and questioning. > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, you say it all makes sense to you now and you understand everything you prayed for the answers about, and that your God is falsifiable. How did you go about determining that? Don’t understand the question. Or did the question apply to the whole paragraph above? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/113 "2015-11-27T03:25:12Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Good summary 🙂 Good, I’m glad I got it right. > [@AHunter3](#): > > Don’t understand the question. Or did the question apply to the whole paragraph above? I wouldn’t have objected to you commenting on what specific info was revealed that caused your transformation, but mostly the question I asked pertained to you saying your God belief was falsifiable. Not aware of any religious folk stating such, and I guess you’re the first I’ve heard of doing so. I think you would have your work cut out for you here. Are you using the same criteria that Popper did with his falsification theory? How did you even go about gathering up data and testing it for your God? What definition could you possibly even have come up with for God that would even make it testable and falsifiable? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/114 "2015-11-27T15:49:07Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > I wouldn’t have objected to you commenting on what specific info was revealed that caused your transformation, but mostly the question I asked pertained to you saying your God belief was falsifiable. Not aware of any religious folk stating such, and I guess you’re the first I’ve heard of doing so. I think you would have your work cut out for you here. Are you using the same criteria that Popper did with his falsification theory? How did you even go about gathering up data and testing it for your God? What definition could you possibly even have come up with for God that would even make it testable and falsifiable? From the thread where you read me saying it was falsifiable: > [@](#): > > I assert that the word and concept “God” is a useful one for me to use in my mind in structuring my thoughts and whatnot. Convince me that it is not so useful to me and that would pretty much do it. By “do it” I mean faisify it. It’s not really about facts, in other words, but the utilitarian value to me as an explanatory framework. ---
**Author:** ![Rokai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Rokai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rokai)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/115 "2015-11-28T20:31:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Agnostics in general are what I would call intellectually honest, they have not seen proof or evidence of God’s existence, so chose to live their lives in a way consistent with that observation and open to change depending on if God wants to reveal him/herself. Yes I am agnostic and I choose to see the world as I see it first hand. Science has explained a lot but to me religion has explained so little or should I say trying to make a different argument on what the hell’s going on. To me if I was religious I would feel the sense of comfort knowing that there’s this all powerful being that loves me and has a plan for me, sounds nice right? but being a realist like I am I can’t just accept the idea of a god without some sort of first hand evidence. So sometimes I get confused why people believe this explanation in the first place. Let’s talk about some of the common reasons why people believe God in the first place. 1. A lot of people say oh I avoided death because of God and now I know God wants me here and that he exists. I mean talk about being easily being sold on the idea that there is a God. If that person asked exactly how it happened I’m sure a scientist or an analyst of some kind will tell the person who nearly avoided death an explanation on how he survived and how it was merely luck. 2. Another way that people believe in God is that they’re born into a religious family and there are only given that explanation from when they’re a little kid on what reality is about. It’s sad when that happens because they grow up believing the explanation of religion without question like their parents did. 3. Another way that I’ve learned that people believe in God is through a painful and sad life. Then they find themselves desperately seeking comfort of any kind. Like a God that loves them and forgives them and also that there will be a heaven that they can go to. With these kind of people it’s just seems its about anything that can get the pain relieved or off there mind. 4. And finally the fear of death and the fear of nothing after we’re all dead. Sure the thought hurts that maybe there is nothing after we die. So a lot of people decide to patch up this fear and gets sold on religion, that theres something else after death like afterlife with heaven and God. Again sounds comforting right? but I would rather deal with reality as it happens vs listening the “sounds too good to be true” explanation of a God and a afterlife. So my position is I’m hopeful that there’s an afterlife where we have a God that loves and cares about each and everyone of us and there is a place like heaven where we can live eternally and be spirits that gets along with each other, but I’m not going to place my bets on that not now probably not ever. Since all I continue to see in my life is things that disprove the idealism of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/116 "2015-11-29T01:31:16Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > **Czarcasm** > The concept of religion is probably the single most harmful and damaging thing that we humans have ever dreamed up to inflict upon ourselves. Seriously? Worse than Nazism, communism, fascism, nationalism, imperialism, racial supremacy, etc? None of the major wars of the 20th century occured due to religion, nor did many of the 19th. Many DID however on the concepts of the above. I’m not saying that religion can’t be harmful. But the idea that that religion is the ultimate evil is extremely simplistic and shows a complete ignorance of history and the context of various events. It inspires people to due evil, yes. But it also inspires people to do good. Just like many philosphies. Religion can’t be placed in a box. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/117 "2015-11-29T02:25:25Z")
Agreed. Religion, per se, is not the single greatest evil that mankind has come up with. Its close cousin, “authoritarianism,” is worse. “You have to obey Big George, because he’s the one who makes the rules around here.” That’s done more harm than religion has. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/118 "2015-11-29T03:05:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Agreed. Religion, per se, is not the single greatest evil that mankind has come up with. > > Its close cousin, “authoritarianism,” is worse. “You have to obey Big George, because he’s the one who makes the rules around here.” That’s done more harm than religion has. Big George can be toppled-his past can be revealed, his mistakes can be pointed out, he can be even be personally removed in a violent fashion. Gods? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/119 "2015-11-29T03:12:54Z")
Gods are easy to topple. Where are the temples to Zeus today? Religion is like fashion. Easily changed. One day, skirts are worn topless in honor of Cybele. Next thing you know, Mariolatry is in, with long blue dresses. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@mr\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_wolf)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498/120 "2015-11-29T23:40:07Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Why? The underlying issue is, why does there have to be a why as well as a how? This is an absolutely marvelous question. As usual, it almost flew by everybody whilst we were looking down. I wish some of the finest minds here could devote some of their time and jot down some tentative answers. What about you Patrick, why does it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-religion/737498.md?page=7)