# I don't understand this legal contract. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 8, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079 "2017-04-08T22:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/21 "2017-04-09T15:42:05Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > So according to her it was her own money anyway. She just used his casino customer loyalty card for the transaction. > Bottom line - her money at stake, her winnings. Yeah, not only that, but she says they were both completely aware of the “whoever pushes the button wins” rule and that on previous occasions they would both push the button with his hand on the bottom so that he would get her good luck, but the jackpot would be his. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/22 "2017-04-09T16:02:43Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > So according to her it was her own money anyway. She just used his casino customer loyalty card for the transaction. > Bottom line - her money at stake, her winnings. According to her. According to him it was his money. We have no way of knowing who’s telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/23 "2017-04-09T16:53:34Z")
First of all, that machine costs _fifty bucks_ a spin? That’s crazy money. Second, what happens if I walk through a casino and see a slot machine into which someone has inserted money and then wandered off? I pull the lever/push the button and win big. If you followed the logic of the guy in the OP, the casino would be bound to ignore my claim and try to figure out who fed the machine. That’s impractical (although given that many of these machines have players use loyalty cards, it’s not impossible). ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/24 "2017-04-09T16:54:54Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Yeah, not only that, but she says they were both completely aware of the “whoever pushes the button wins” rule and that on previous occasions they would both push the button with his hand on the bottom so that he would get her good luck, but the jackpot would be his. > [@voltaire](#): > > I’ve been there enough and know the crowd enough to suspect that she knew the rule well and was in the act of capitalizing on her chances to capitalize on that rule. Is this a common rule? Is it posted? I’m not disputing it, but in all the casinos I’ve been to (quite a few on the strip in Vegas, two big ones in Wisconsin and one in the U.P. (the latter three all Indian controlled if it makes a difference), I’ve never seen anything that would make this rule well known to the random person. But, my question is, how would she capitalize on it? It’s not as if they paid the money to her friend and then if she throws a fit they’ll pay it out _again_ to her. If, somehow, someone decides she gets the money, the friend will have to pay it back, but at this point, it sounds like a civil issue. > [@Isamu](#): > > So according to her it was her own money anyway. She just used his casino customer loyalty card for the transaction. > Bottom line - her money at stake, her winnings. It seems like it doesn’t matter who’s money it is, but who pressed the button. Kind of like in photography, the person who physically presses the shutter button owns it. If you hand me your $1000 DSLR camera, hand me $50 to take a picture of your kids, like it or not, I own the rights to that picture. But that’s not something most people know. I only know it from being on photog message boards. I suppose casinos have to make some kind of rules (and it helps if they’re uniform from one place to the next) just to make these things easier. And, frankly, I’m sure they really don’t care what you do when you leave, but they need to know what name to put on the check (and/or 1099). ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/25 "2017-04-09T17:03:48Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Second, what happens if I walk through a casino and see a slot machine into which someone has inserted money and then wandered off? I pull the lever/push the button and win big. If you followed the logic of the guy in the OP, the casino would be bound to ignore my claim and try to figure out who fed the machine. That’s impractical (although given that many of these machines have players use loyalty cards, it’s not impossible). Or even more complicated: Person A puts $1 in a machine and walks away. Person B puts $1 in the same machine, pushes a button and wins a jackpot. Person A comes back, pushes the button and wins nothing. So who deserves the jackpot? The person who put the money in first, or the person who pushed the button first? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/26 "2017-04-09T17:10:06Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Or even more complicated: Person A puts $1 in a machine and walks away. Person B puts $1 in the same machine, pushes a button and wins a jackpot. Person A comes back, pushes the button and wins nothing. So who deserves the jackpot? The person who put the money in first, or the person who pushed the button first? If the rule that the person who pushed the button wins the money is correct, it doesn’t seem complicated at all. Person B wins. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/27 "2017-04-09T17:24:14Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Is this a common rule? Is it posted? I’m not disputing it, but in all the casinos I’ve been to (quite a few on the strip in Vegas, two big ones in Wisconsin and one in the U.P. (the latter three all Indian controlled if it makes a difference), I’ve never seen anything that would make this rule well known to the random person. Apparently, it is a universal rule, but I’m not a slots-playing person, so I didn’t know that until now. > [@](#): > > But, my question is, how would she capitalize on it? It’s not as if they paid the money to her friend and then if she throws a fit they’ll pay it out _again_ to her. If, somehow, someone decides she gets the money, the friend will have to pay it back, but at this point, it sounds like a civil issue. Well, your second quote of me there was actually my first post, when I knew few details and I was just basing my suspicion on the location. But what I was implying was simply that she knew the rule and was maximizing her chances by “mingling” with high-roller types and pushing their buttons as often as they’d let her. After hearing her side, I’m still not sure what to make of my suspicions, but he loses a bit of credibility for how he originally presented the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/28 "2017-04-09T21:37:07Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > First of all, that machine costs _fifty bucks_ a spin? That’s crazy money. > > Second, what happens if I walk through a casino and see a slot machine into which someone has inserted money and then wandered off? I pull the lever/push the button and win big. If you followed the logic of the guy in the OP, the casino would be bound to ignore my claim and try to figure out who fed the machine. That’s impractical (although given that many of these machines have players use loyalty cards, it’s not impossible). If someone leaves credits behind in a slot machine the casino has ownership of those credits until the rightful owner claims them. It might not come up unless you win something or the owner comes back and finds you sitting at their machine, but then a review of the security cameras and game logs would disqualify your win at best and might wind up getting you arrested or at least escorted out of the casino and banned for life. All this talk about the casino “having to track down” or “figure out” something in these cases is irrelevant. They have a traceable record of every movement of every penny on the casino floor and they “track down” exactly what happened with every bet in the casino as a routine course of doing business. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/29 "2017-04-10T03:13:36Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > First of all, that machine costs _fifty bucks_ a spin? That’s crazy money. > > Second, what happens if I walk through a casino and see a slot machine into which someone has inserted money and then wandered off? I pull the lever/push the button and win big. If you followed the logic of the guy in the OP, the casino would be bound to ignore my claim and try to figure out who fed the machine. That’s impractical (although given that many of these machines have players use loyalty cards, it’s not impossible). Even worse, what would happen if you just stand behind a player and wait until they put money in then quickly press their button before they can? And just keep doing that? It’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/30 "2017-04-10T04:20:02Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Even worse, what would happen if you just stand behind a player and wait until they put money in then quickly press their button before they can? And just keep doing that? It’s bullshit. If you mean it’s bullshit that that could possibly happen you’re right. You would be arrested for theft exactly as if you tried to take the money from their pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/31 "2017-04-10T04:34:50Z")
So then the rule that whoever pushes the button is the owner of the winnings is … NOT TRUE. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/32 "2017-04-10T05:08:39Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > So then the rule that whoever pushes the button is the owner of the winnings is … NOT TRUE. Not if the play is fraudulent to begin with, obviously. They would just void the play and arrest the thief. If two people are in agreement about playing together then whoever pushes the button is owner of the winnings. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/33 "2017-04-10T13:22:16Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’s known as “playing behind” - basically you put your bet behind the controlling player’s bet in order to bet on their hand. It’s polite to ask them first. IME it’s a lot more common in Asian casinos; elderly Chinese ladies seem to think Americans are lucky. Well, that’s what I mean. Is the bet behind the betting circle or in it? ---
**Author:** ![AHarris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bcef8e/32.png) [@AHarris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHarris)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/34 "2017-04-10T14:55:47Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > I don’t mean to hijack the thread but I’m curious about this. What’s the reason those machines are off limits to you just because you work there? It’s a condition that you see all the time if you read the fine print on lotteries and similar contests. It’s done to remove the perception that a winning employee rigged the system and more importantly guard against the possibility that they did. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/35 "2017-04-10T15:25:45Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’s known as “playing behind” - basically you put your bet behind the controlling player’s bet in order to bet on their hand. It’s polite to ask them first. IME it’s a lot more common in Asian casinos; elderly Chinese ladies seem to think Americans are lucky. Just to add a little more to this response, it’s sometimes known as Wonging, after a math whiz who used this betting technique as part of a card-counting strategy. There were two flavors of this, one involved joining a shoe mid-hand and one involved backing up other player’s bets. As most of us know, card counting relies on players betting small when the house has the edge, and betting large when the players have the edge. Wonging is based on betting zero when the house has the edge. I have no idea how many casinos allow this, considering the efforts that many casinos have been taken over the past many years to limit the ability of players to count cards. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079/36 "2017-04-10T17:41:47Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > I don’t mean to hijack the thread but I’m curious about this. What’s the reason those machines are off limits to you just because you work there? I don’t know the exact reasoning but the ones we can’t play are actually the funnest ones lol They’re the BIG ones that are usually for some popular show (The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones). But they’re also electronically connected to ALL the other casinos that have those games. You’re essentially playing against people in other states at the same time. I think it has something to do with there being no way to confirm that our ‘clearance’ would be suffice under another casino’s rules regarding security clearance or something. It’s weird. We’re also not allowed to play any table games except poker because we’re gambling with our own money and not the casinos?? I dunno lol I don’t gamble much so it hasn’t really affected me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-legal-contract/784079.md?page=1)