# I don't understand this warning for puddleglum **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444 "2020-06-11T11:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/21 "2020-06-11T15:18:32Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I guess you mean it’s an ethnic slur, but is it? I don’t think it’s important to quibble between an ethnic slur and a racial slur, especially since they are all artificial creations anyway. For instance, in the time and place where I was growing up, it seemed that people from India, Arabs, and Latinos were considered “ethnic” rather than races, even though there was just as much or more casual discrimination against them. (While of course these days there is more casual acceptance while at the same time more active and open hatred.) And the phrase is totally an ethnic slur. I don’t have an opinion on whether this use of it deserves a warning or not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/22 "2020-06-11T15:26:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Can you please respond to my request in [this](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897400) thread? See posts 124 and 125. I’m confused. Is that relevant to this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/23 "2020-06-11T15:27:32Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I guess you mean it’s an ethnic slur, but is it? Do you have a cite for that? Race and ethnicity are fluid descriptors. In 1930, the US Census list of **races** included options like Mexican, Korean, Chinese, Hindu and Japanese. Benjamin Franklin was upset about “swarthy” peoples coming to America - by which he meant the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians, Swedes, and Germans. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/24 "2020-06-11T15:28:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m confused. Is that relevant to this thread? You’re not confused. You just think you’re being cute. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/25 "2020-06-11T15:32:50Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You’re not confused. You just think you’re being cute. No, actually, I don’t. I’m asking for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/26 "2020-06-11T15:38:50Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > To me, he was obviously showing fake disdain for the Irish people. Who in America, in the last 50 or 100 years, really have disdain for the Irish? It was clearly irony (or satire?) to me. You just keep reaffirming your complaint is based on ignorance. There was mutual disdain on the part of some between the Italians and the Irish in my neighborhood in the Bronx when I was growing up, and there’s still plenty of anti-Irish prejudice in the UK. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I don’t think puddleglum was making his comment based on any known negative stereotype of the Irish. Again, ignorance. I’ve linked to a site referencing the use of “potato-eater” as a slur. And if you don’t think the Irish have been regarded as “savages” by the English and by Americans of English descent, then you aren’t familiar with their history. > [@](#): > > I’m confused here. Earlier you said that it was clearly meant ironically, but that was no excuse. What you wrote above suggests you think he meant it literally. On re-reading the full quote, it’s convinced me that the poster actually does have disdain for the Irish. Saying “I hate to give the [Irish] any credit” is a bigoted statement even without adding not one but two ethnic slurs. He’s saying that he doesn’t expect anything good from the Irish. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/27 "2020-06-11T15:39:26Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Race and ethnicity are fluid descriptors. > > In 1930, the US Census list of **races** included options like Mexican, Korean, Chinese, Hindu and Japanese. > > Benjamin Franklin was upset about “swarthy” peoples coming to America - by which he meant the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians, Swedes, and Germans. Swedes & Germans? Even French & Russian sounds weird. I think this factoid might not be accurate. I’m used to Italians, Spaniards & Greeks being called swarthy, really don’t like it. Swedes & Germans being included is really unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/28 "2020-06-11T15:41:14Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Can you please respond to my request in [this](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897400) thread? See posts 124 and 125. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m confused. Is that relevant to this thread? > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You’re not confused. You just think you’re being cute. > [@Acsenray](#): > > No, actually, I don’t. I’m asking for clarification. **Moderator Instructions** Let’s not hijack this thread into discussion of other issues from other threads. Drop this now. Colibri ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/29 "2020-06-11T15:46:34Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Swedes & Germans? Even French & Russian sounds weird. I think this factoid might not be accurate. I’m used to Italians, Spaniards & Greeks being called swarthy, really don’t like it. Swedes & Germans being included is really unlikely. Here’s Franklin on this subject [http://www.columbia.edu/~lmg21/ash3002y/earlyac99/documents/observations.html](http://www.columbia.edu/~lmg21/ash3002y/earlyac99/documents/observations.html) " Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth." ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/30 "2020-06-11T15:49:32Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Race and ethnicity are fluid descriptors. Today Irish is regarded as an ethnicity, but earlier it was definitely classified as a race. In fact, the Irish were often [linked to](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Scientific_racism_irish.jpg) or [depicted as Africans](https://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/the-irish-monkey-9.jpg) in order to emphasize their savagery and inferiority. See here for depictions of the[simian negroid Irish.](https://flashbak.com/the-simian-negroid-irish-depicted-in-english-and-american-cartoons-12727/) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/31 "2020-06-11T15:51:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Again, ignorance. I’ve linked to a site referencing the use of “potato-eater” as a slur. And if you don’t think the Irish have been regarded as “savages” by the English and by Americans of English descent, then you aren’t familiar with their history. No ignorance. I said “I don’t think puddleglum was making his comment based on …” I’m talking about intent and what I believe “he” knows, or at least may not know, hence my comment about him getting the benefit of the doubt. It’s doubtful he was Using “potato eater” to get under anyone’s skin or to be taken offensively. He’s not some new poster trying to get banned. Same with using “savages” ironically. > [@](#): > > On re-reading the full quote, it’s convinced me that the poster actually does have disdain for the Irish. Saying “I hate to give the [Irish] any credit” is a bigoted statement even without adding not one but two ethnic slurs. He’s saying that he doesn’t expect anything good from the Irish. I’m surprised so many think this sort of disdain in the U.S. for the Irish still exists where that conclusion can be reached. But, okay. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/32 "2020-06-11T15:53:46Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Here’s Franklin on this subject > > [Franklin's "Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind . . . "](http://www.columbia.edu/~lmg21/ash3002y/earlyac99/documents/observations.html) > > " Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth." Wow, OK, I’m very surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/33 "2020-06-11T15:58:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Today Irish is regarded as an ethnicity, but earlier it was definitely classified as a race. Yep. I’m well aware. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/34 "2020-06-11T15:59:24Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I’m surprised so many think this sort of disdain in the U.S. for the Irish still exists where that conclusion can be reached. It doesn’t. See: [The Rise of Victimhood Culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_Victimhood_Culture) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/35 "2020-06-11T16:00:16Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wow, OK, I’m very surprised. I was too… ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/36 "2020-06-11T16:11:06Z")
It’s not like racism - or exclusion of the other - is new or anything. And Franklin was a man born with feet of clay. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/37 "2020-06-11T16:28:24Z")
The separation of ethnicity and race isn’t all that relevant with the word “racism,” as it’s been historically used for both. We don’t have a separate word like “ethnicism”–at least, not in common use. And count me as doubtful that someone wouldn’t know that the potato-eating stereotype was offensive to Irish people. Even if you don’t know the history, and somehow heard the epithet without context, the default is to assume those old-timey ethnic stereotypes are offensive unless you have been told otherwise. I’m still unsure if mentioning sauerkraut with Germans is kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/38 "2020-06-11T16:34:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I take it you don’t know any Irish people or know anything about Irish history. I’m an Irish-American, and my great-great grandfather was a refugee from the Great Famine. Considering the centuries of severe repression of the Irish, such offensive slurs should not be tossed around lightly. I found it very offensive. > > The poster no doubt meant it ironically, but that’s still no excuse. As **e\_c\_g** says it’s in the same category as “beaner,” “currry-muncher,” “greaser,” etc.; adding “savage” made it worse. I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored, then. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/39 "2020-06-11T16:39:41Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I’m surprised so many think this sort of disdain in the U.S. for the Irish still exists where that conclusion can be reached. But, okay. These days, I almost expect that people claiming Irish ancestry are fibbing (or exaggerating). On the other hand, I knew a guy in college who had Irish ancestry, and was strangely embarrassed by it (he was weird in other ways, too, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/40 "2020-06-11T17:08:56Z")
A lot of discussion here surrounding this issue seems to center around the poster’s intent. “I don’t think he intended this”, or, “I think he intended that.” Let’s now lose sight of the fact that the clarity of any post is the sole responsibility of the poster because he is the one creating it and who is, in this particular instance, puddleglum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=3)