# I don't understand this warning for puddleglum **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444 "2020-06-11T11:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/41 "2020-06-11T17:13:17Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > These days, I almost expect that people claiming Irish ancestry are fibbing (or exaggerating). On the other hand, I knew a guy in college who had Irish ancestry, and was strangely embarrassed by it (he was weird in other ways, too, of course). Why fibbing? It might be pretty minor, but a lot of us have some Irish. In my case it is only my Mother’s Mother’s Mother. She was apparently born & raised in Cork before coming to NYC. But as I’m half Italian I usually say I’m basically Italian-American, I never claim to be Irish, just that I’m a little Irish and not just on St. Paddy’s Day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/42 "2020-06-11T17:32:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The poster no doubt meant it ironically, but that’s still no excuse. As **e\_c\_g** says it’s in the same category as “beaner,” “currry-muncher,” “greaser,” etc.; adding “savage” made it worse. I thought “greaser” described a lifestyle choice; fast cars & loose women and such. What ethnic group is it allegedly associated with? WASP’s? Urban Dictionary and such seem to agree with me. It may be stereotypical certainly, but not racially or ethnically offensive per se. Note I am fully open to being corrected on this score. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/43 "2020-06-11T17:35:31Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > A lot of discussion here surrounding this issue seems to center around the poster’s intent. “I don’t think he intended this”, or, “I think he intended that.” Let’s now lose sight of the fact that the clarity of any post is the sole responsibility of the poster because he is the one creating it and who is, in this particular instance, puddleglum. Well, I haven’t hedged like that because I think his intent (irony and humor) was perfectly clear. I can only find one comment that even comes close to what you’re saying, from **x-ray vision**. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/44 "2020-06-11T17:36:33Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I thought “greaser” described a lifestyle choice; fast cars & loose women and such. What ethnic group is it allegedly associated with? WASP’s? Urban Dictionary and such seem to agree with me. It may be stereotypical certainly, but not racially or ethnically offensive per se. Note I am fully open to being corrected on this score. I think it’s a slur against Italians, although Wikipedia says also Hispanics: > **[Greaser (subculture)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaser_(subculture))** > > Greasers are a youth subculture that emerged in the 1950s and early 1960s from predominantly working class and lower-class teenagers and young adults in the United States and Canada. The subculture remained prominent into the mid-1960s and was particularly embraced by certain ethnic groups in urban areas, particularly Italian Americans and Hispanic Americans. > The etymology for the term greaser is unknown.: 109  By the time of the Civil War, the words "greaser" and "greaseball" were understo... ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/45 "2020-06-11T17:37:45Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Why fibbing? It might be pretty minor, but a lot of us have some Irish. In my case it is only my Mother’s Mother’s Mother. She was apparently born & raised in Cork before coming to NYC. But as I’m half Italian I usually say I’m basically Italian-American, I never claim to be Irish, just that I’m a little Irish and not just on St. Paddy’s Day. Fair enough. I may be overreacting to the “everybody’s Irish on Saint Patrick’s Day” philosophy you refer to. P.S. Another reference to give an idea of how recent ethnic prejudice is: this article praising Joe Dimaggio in 1939 [Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=qE...lic%22&f=false) “Although he learned Italian first, Joe, now 24, speaks English without an accent, and is otherwise well adapted to most U.S. mores. Instead of olive oil or smelly bear grease he keeps his hair slick with water. He never reeks of garlic and prefers chicken chow mein to spaghetti.” ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/46 "2020-06-11T17:40:10Z")
A kinder, gentler Dope ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/47 "2020-06-11T23:58:59Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I think it’s a slur against Italians, although Wikipedia says also Hispanics: > > [Greaser (subculture) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaser_(subculture)) From Merriam-Webster: > [@](#): > > \*\*2 \*\* disparaging+ offensive : a native or inhabitant of Latin America or a Mediterranean land > especially : MEXICAN It was a standard slur for Mexican in the U.S. Southwest from the 19th century up through the middle of the 20th century. Yanks just enjoy disparagement so much that we will often expand definition and use to groups not originally targeted. Spic has undergone a similar expansion to Italians and Greeks. A note on using the Urban Dictionary: it tends to pick up very recent definitions (where people think that a word has a confusing meaning) while omitting definitions that are so common that “everyone” already knows that meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/48 "2020-06-12T00:00:40Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I thought “greaser” described a lifestyle choice; fast cars & loose women and such. What ethnic group is it allegedly associated with? WASP’s? Urban Dictionary and such seem to agree with me. It may be stereotypical certainly, but not racially or ethnically offensive per se. Note I am fully open to being corrected on this score. [Greaser is a slur for Mexicans.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaser_(derogatory)) It can also be used for Italians (also greaseball). [Greaser culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaser_(subculture)) is not specifically ethnic although it was largely associated with Italians and Latinos. If you talked about a greaser in my high school in the 1960s you were probably talking about an Italian who had adopted greaser culture. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/49 "2020-06-12T00:03:22Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Yep. I’m well aware. I was elaborating on what you said, not trying to inform you. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/50 "2020-06-12T00:08:43Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Well, I haven’t hedged like that because I think his intent (irony and humor) was perfectly clear. You can express irony and humor without the use of ethnic slurs. Even if that were his intent, that would be inappropriate. How about this: “I hate to give those stupid greaseballs any credit, but Italians sure know how to cook!” Pretty hilarious, no? Or “I hate to give those dumb Swedish squareheads any credit, but IKEA makes pretty good furniture.” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/51 "2020-06-12T00:09:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I was elaborating on what you said, not trying to inform you. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/52 "2020-06-12T00:23:01Z")
For all my disagreements with puddleglum, I don’t think this comment deserved a warning: he was clearly suggesting that the Irish were civilized through the use of an ironically and intentionally inapt insult. At best it could take a “Don’t make jokes undermining ethnic stereotypes with ethnic slurs” note. Moderate with finger outside the trigger guard. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/53 "2020-06-12T02:15:37Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I’ve routinely seen white trash used without any modding, seems inconsistent but I’m sure uh we nobody reported those or something like that. & > [@RitterSport](#): > > Right, but in context, he was saying the opposite – they are not savages because, even though their per capita police officer level is similar to the US, their crime rate is much lower. > > This is as opposed to slurs like Karen and white trash that are typically used to disparage the target. **puddleglum** ’s usage was explicitly non-disparaging. And “white trash” is actually racist against Blacks. _Cracked_ recently had an article or video article about that. Sorry, but I can’t seem to find it now. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/54 "2020-06-12T02:20:31Z")
Mods, I feel like if both **Left Hand of Dorkness** and **iiandyiiii** thought it was, at worst, mod-notable, but not warnable, that’s an indication that, maybe, the warning should be rescinded. Both of those posters are pretty clued in on this kind of thing. **Colibri** , there’s something inapt to your analogy, but I can’t put my finger on it. I think it’s because **puddleglum** was stating that the Irish were far from savages (low crime rate), whereas your “greaseballs” comment has nothing to do with cooking. ETA: I think I’ve said my piece here. This is not a hill I’m willing to die on. (Side note – I thought it should be “said my peace”, so I double-checked. TIL it’s “said my piece”) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/55 "2020-06-12T04:01:54Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Mods, I feel like if both **Left Hand of Dorkness** and **iiandyiiii** thought it was, at worst, mod-notable, but not warnable, that’s an indication that, maybe, the warning should be rescinded. Both of those posters are pretty clued in on this kind of thing. > > **Colibri** , there’s something inapt to your analogy, but I can’t put my finger on it. I think it’s because **puddleglum** was stating that the Irish were far from savages (low crime rate), whereas your “greaseballs” comment has nothing to do with cooking. > > ETA: I think I’ve said my piece here. This is not a hill I’m willing to die on. (Side note – I thought it should be “said my peace”, so I double-checked. TIL it’s “said my piece”) That’s the way I took it as well. See, the Irish have done X and Y better than the United States. Not bad for a bunch of \_\_\_\_. To me that is saying that for anyone who wants to say bad things about the Irish, look at this good thing they have done. And “potato eating savages” is almost comical as an insult sort of the way I joke with Canadians in some posts. Has anyone in history referred to the Irish as “savages.” I’ve never heard it. It’ was a comment made in jest for levity. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/56 "2020-06-12T04:22:00Z")
Next time he should just say that the Irish are not genetically equal to other ethnic groups and, almost, no one will bat an eye. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/57 "2020-06-12T04:38:52Z")
While I knew at least some of the history of Irish people being oppressed, it didn’t connect in my mind that anti-Irish slurs still had power today. I think the post in question appeared to be meant ironically, but the warning and this thread has helped educate me. I hope puddleglum takes it as an opportunity to learn as well, and I’ll (once again) note that I think he’s a good contributor, despite his nauseating politics. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/58 "2020-06-12T04:43:01Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > (Side note – I thought it should be “said my peace”, so I double-checked. TIL it’s “said my piece”) Is it? This site says peace: [Speak now or forever hold your peace](https://grammarist.com/phrase/speak-now-or-forever-hold-your-peace/) As in at a wedding, if you have an objection to the wedding, then speak now or forever hold your peace. IOW, if you don’t say what is on your mind now, then don’t start causing problems with this marriage later, be at peace with it, or “hold” your peace. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/59 "2020-06-12T04:50:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > … > > However, mild humor like this can lighten things up. I get that it’s a slur, sort of, but it’s such a harmless joke that I don’t understand the warning. Maybe with a emoticon, but it it is a obvious slur. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/60 "2020-06-12T04:57:24Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Is it? This site says peace: [Speak now or forever hold your peace](https://grammarist.com/phrase/speak-now-or-forever-hold-your-peace/) > > As in at a wedding, if you have an objection to the wedding, then speak now or forever hold your peace. > > IOW, if you don’t say what is on your mind now, then don’t start causing problems with this marriage later, be at peace with it, or “hold” your peace. Saying your piece is different than holding your peace. I know the words sound a lot alike. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=4)