# I don't understand this warning for puddleglum **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444 "2020-06-11T11:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/61 "2020-06-12T05:03:12Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Has anyone in history referred to the Irish as “savages.” I’ve never heard it. 😕 :eek: You have got to be kidding. To take just one of many, many instances, the 1882 pamphlet [“What Science is Saying about Ireland”](http://sarkoups.free.fr/whatscience1882.pdf): > [@](#): > > In one respect some negro tribes are superior to the Irish, inasmuch as they know that it is good for them to be coerced. […] The only chance for a savage to behave well and improve is by his being ruled well and strongly. […] > > But the whole history of Ireland for hundreds of years shows (what to scientific knowledge of low types of mankind does not want showing) that ordinary law is and must be powerless and juries useless, and that for such people despotism (of course as benevolent as possible) is the only effectual government. […] > > If there is a fraction of truth in history and science, Parnellism, carried out permanently and successfully, must mean in the long run Ireland being deserted by capital and by all superior and improving people, and the country given up to the merely numerical majority—that is to say, to hordes of lazy, dirty, drunken, rowdy, Roman Catholic, potato-eating, pauper peasants, pauper squireens, and pauper priests, all persecuting with the utmost intolerance any Protestants who might still be left in the country, and never losing an opportunity that might be offered them to manifest that hatred of England and the English, degraded people so often manifest towards those who are superior to them. Or the [diary of Fanny Kemble](https://books.google.com/books?id=eqoMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109) in 1832: > [@](#): > > […] neither he nor any one else will ever succeed in having a decent house, if the servants are not a little superior to the Irish savages who officiate in that capacity in most houses, public and private, in the northern states of America. I mean, the “savage” slur was an absolute cliche about the Irish among people of English descent well into the 20th century. (Notice the contemptuous use of “potato-eating” in there too.) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/62 "2020-06-12T05:25:07Z")
Ignorance fought. I had never heard that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/63 "2020-06-12T11:36:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Ignorance fought. I had never heard that. I cannot believe you’re not familiar with pamphlets from 1882! I knew that the Irish were discriminated against, but had never known “savages” to be applied to them – I thought that was reserved for people with darker skin. “We’ll share the land with the \ and the \, but not the Irish!” \<–Blazing Saddles. Anyway, the example I found specifically contrasted “said your piece” and “hold your peace”: > **[Do You 'Say Your Piece' or 'Say Your Peace'?](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/say-your-piece-versus-peace-usage)** > > The whole truth about a confusing idiom. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/64 "2020-06-12T12:45:46Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > & > > And “white trash” is actually racist against Blacks. _Cracked_ recently had an article or video article about that. Sorry, but I can’t seem to find it now. Ironically, “potato eating savages” is the kind of humor that _would_ be appropriate for a _Cracked_ article, because there is a mutual understanding that they will be making those sort of jokes. A message board post is another story, even if it doesn’t deserve a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/65 "2020-06-12T13:07:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > How about this: “I hate to give those stupid greaseballs any credit, but Italians sure know how to cook!” Pretty hilarious, no? Or “I hate to give those dumb Swedish squareheads any credit, but IKEA makes pretty good furniture.” If you remove (or ignore) all context, then yes it sounds a lot different. As is so frequently the case. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/66 "2020-06-12T14:51:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you remove (or ignore) all context, then yes it sounds a lot different. As is so frequently the case. Also, “stupid” and “dumb” are somehow supposed to be analogous to “potato-eating” in those examples. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/67 "2020-06-12T15:05:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I cannot believe you’re not familiar with pamphlets from 1882! Anti-Irish slurs of “savagery” and the like are not an obscure phenomenon: I just went with the original source cites to attest to the way in which such slurs were actually used. If you google something like “Irish were called savages”, you can get millions of more modern references in secondary sources. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment#19th_century): > [@](#): > > Irish racism in Victorian Britain and 19th century United States included the stereotyping of the Irish as violent and alcoholic. Some English illustrators depicted a prehistoric “ape-like image” of Irish faces to bolster evolutionary racist claims that the Irish people were an “inferior race” as compared to Anglo-Saxons. [“When the Irish Weren’t White”](https://www.theroot.com/when-the-irish-weren-t-white-1793358754): > [@](#): > > These are historical statements from yesteryear describing a despised race of people in America. They are indicative of the sentiment of white people throughout this country who thought a subhuman species good for nothing but work and servitude might ruin America with their crime, poverty and interbreeding with white women. They were not referring to Africans, Mexicans or Muslims. > > They were talking about the Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/68 "2020-06-12T18:44:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > While I knew at least some of the history of Irish people being oppressed, it didn’t connect in my mind that anti-Irish slurs still had power today. I think the post in question appeared to be meant ironically, but the warning and this thread has helped educate me. I hope puddleglum takes it as an opportunity to learn as well, and I’ll (once again) note that I think he’s a good contributor, despite his nauseating politics. Thank you. I’m glad some people have been educated by this thread. It’s true that Irish-Americans suffer minimal discrimination in the United States today, but that doesn’t mean they’ve entirely forgotten their past history of oppression. And anti-Irish sentiment is [hardly a thing of the past in the UK.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment#21st_century) Discrimination against Irish Catholics in the US has been a significant factor within my own lifetime. I recall that there was opposition against John F. Kennedy’s election due to prejudice against Catholics. Many thought at the time thought that a Catholic couldn’t be elected President. Among Irish-Americans, JFK’s election was nearly as big a deal as Obama’s election was for African-Americans, as a triumph over past discrimination. And the fact that the first (and only) Irish Catholic President was murdered was a great blow (even if the assassination had nothing to with his ethnicity); many older Irish-Americans still have pictures of JFK on their walls. My own grandfather grew up in a poverty-stricken neighborhood in the South Bronx in the late 1800s. His mother, father, aunt, uncle, two sisters, and a cousin all died of disease in the space of eight years, leaving him an orphan at the age of 11. He never spoke of this; we only found this out when we looked for his father’s grave and found it contained seven bodies. They could only afford the one grave, and had to stack them up like cordwood. As I said, prejudice against Irish, particularly Irish Catholics, still exists in the UK, and many Irish Americans continue to identify with Ireland and its troubles. My brother has visited Ireland a number of times, in particular on scholarships to learn the Irish language, and my mother visited several times. Both my brother and I have read extensively on Irish and Irish American history, especially on the rebellions and the Great Famine (aka the Irish Potato Famine), which caused the starvation of one million and the emigration of a million others (my ancestors among them). I have nieces named Erin and Shannon. The Good Friday Agreement that ended most of the violence in Northern Ireland was only signed 22 years ago. During the conflict I knew people in the Bronx who contributed to the Catholic side in the conflict. Given this, being referred to as “potato-eating savages” is not nearly as jocular as it may sound to those not familiar with this history. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/69 "2020-06-12T19:15:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I took it as entirely ironic. If there are any Irish folks out there offended, I’ll defer to them, but I have trouble seeing this as equivalent to slurs that are actually used to dehumanize. Offended? Doesn’t seem the right word, I wouldn’t give a horseshit comment like that the pleasure of offending me. I certainly don’t take it as some friendly banter though, it was definitely a dig at us using the same tired old cliches. Fucking potatoes again, how original. Potato eating drunks. Cheese eating surrender monkeys. Greasy Italians. Fat racist Americans. How funny such generalizations are, oh how we laughed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/70 "2020-06-12T19:40:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Thank you. I’m glad some people have been educated by this thread. > > It’s true that Irish-Americans suffer minimal discrimination in the United States today, but that doesn’t mean they’ve entirely forgotten their past history of oppression. > … > > Given this, being referred to as “potato-eating savages” is not nearly as jocular as it may sound to those not familiar with this history. As an “Irish-American” who’s known for a quarter century about the 19th century race riots in NYC both by and against Irish immigrants, who’s read about the plague ships in Canada, who’s looked at Typhoid Mary through the lens of anti-Irish bigotry, it’s not that we’ve forgotten our past history of oppression (on both sides of the truncheon), it’s that most of us recognize that in modern America it’s virtually vanished. Yes, sixty years ago there were vestiges of it; but today you’d be hard-pressed to find someone in the US with a genuine prejudice against the Irish. So treating a clearly-jocular and ironic reference to anti-Irish bigotry as equivalent to real and actual bigotry indicates a deep deficit when it comes to understanding, not history, but irony. **Colibri** , in the past 20 years, the persona you’ve adopted here is one of a deeply humorless moderator. Repeatedly you’ve shown not just incomprehension of joking, but almost anger at people making jokes. I don’t know if that’s what you’re like in real life, but it does make me think that you above others should moderate with your finger outside the trigger guard when it comes to humor. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/71 "2020-06-12T19:58:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Colibri** , in the past 20 years, the persona you’ve adopted here is one of a deeply humorless moderator. Repeatedly you’ve shown not just incomprehension of joking, but almost anger at people making jokes. I don’t know if that’s what you’re like in real life, but it does make me think that you above others should moderate with your finger outside the trigger guard when it comes to humor. Frankly, I think you must be joking. This is utterly absurd. Anyone who follows my posts knows I make a lot of jokes, including in GQ. Per GQ rules, I moderate jokes made before the question has been answered, but not normally afterward, unless they are offensive. And I do moderate “jokes” containing ethnic slurs. If you feel that ethnic slurs are so hilarious that the should get a pass, I don’t know what to say to you. I’m actually quite disappointed in your response to this thread. You have expressed strong opposition to bigotry, but somehow bigotry against the Irish gets a pass. I’ve explained at length why this is not a dead issue. Discrimination in the US is not the only issue. Your stance here seems wildly inconsistent with previous positions. I think you wouldn’t be so accepting of slurs against another group. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/72 "2020-06-12T20:13:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Frankly, I think you must be joking. This is utterly absurd. Anyone who follows my posts knows I make a lot of jokes, including in GQ. Per GQ rules, I moderate jokes made before the question has been answered, but not normally afterward, unless they are offensive. And I do moderate “jokes” containing ethnic slurs. If you feel that ethnic slurs are so hilarious that the should get a pass, I don’t know what to say to you. Maybe you joke in GQ. I don’t spend much time in GQ, based on my experiences there. This quote shows exactly how little you’re understanding the points being made, though. I don’t find ethnic slurs hilarious, and your belief that laughter is my motive is appallingly absurd. Rather, I recognize irony and how it works. Contrast to this understanding: > [@Colibri](#): > > The poster no doubt meant it ironically, but that’s still no excuse. > [@Colibri](#): > > Not really. He was expressing surprise that such “savages” could possibly have gotten something right, when more civilized people couldn’t. It’s like expressing surprise that a black person could possibly graduate from Harvard. If puddleglum were expressing surprise that savages could have gotten something right, first off, it wouldn’t have been an ironic usage, so you’re being inconsistent here. Moreover, his post would’ve been incoherent. His ethnic slur works only because he so obviously doesn’t mean it: he’s clearly praising the Irish. Ethnic praise like that is itself problematic, but at least understand what the problem is. > [@](#): > > I’m actually quite disappointed in your response to this thread. You have expressed strong opposition to bigotry, but somehow bigotry against the Irish gets a pass. I’ve explained at length why this is not a dead issue. Discrimination in the US is not the only issue. Your stance here seems wildly inconsistent with previous positions. I think you wouldn’t be so accepting of slurs against another group. God, I hate to disappoint you. That’s not irony, that’s sarcasm, because I’m not really concerned about your disappointment. I’ve tried to be clear always that bigotry should be evaluated in historical and modern context. And while historically of course there’s been vicious bigotry against the Irish in the US, your most recent example of it is more than half a century old, and for good reason: such prejudice is, in the modern US, vanishingly rare. What’s not rare, however, is for fully-assimilated white folks to decide they want in on that sweet sweet oppressed identity swag, and to reach for an ethnic history that allows them to claim persecution. I am not here for that nonsense. It looks to me like this warning was based on a misunderstanding of an ironic usage, coupled with a misunderstanding of what actual bigotry looks like in the wild, coupled with a hair-trigger moderation. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/73 "2020-06-12T20:32:00Z")
Wait, do we have to check with LHOD for now on, on what people are oppressed and what counts as ethnically insulting? How come I didn’t get that memo? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/74 "2020-06-12T20:33:54Z")
I’ve explained previously why the points you’ve made are incorrect. If you choose to ignore most what I’ve posted previously, I’m not going to get into a prolonged debate over it and keep rehashing the same points over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/75 "2020-06-12T20:35:19Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wait, do we have to check with LHOD for now on, on what people are oppressed and what counts as ethnically insulting? > > How come I didn’t get that memo? It appears to be so. Like I said, he wouldn’t accept similar arguments made for other ethnic groups. It seem to me he is playing “Opposite Day.”😉 (That’s a joke.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/76 "2020-06-12T20:52:44Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wait, do we have to check with LHOD for now on, on what people are oppressed and what counts as ethnically insulting? > > How come I didn’t get that memo? What a bizarre comment. Go by your own reading of the evidence: do YOU see evidence that Irish folks face any actual oppression in the modern US? This is the sort of post people make when they don’t bring evidence or argument to the table. > [@Colibri](#): > > I’ve explained previously why the points you’ve made are incorrect. If you choose to ignore most what I’ve posted previously, I’m not going to get into a prolonged debate over it and keep rehashing the same points over and over. Uh, no you haven’t. Before I wrote that, I read through all your posts in the thread, in case I’d missed any evidence of actual oppression in the US in the last half-century. You offered instead things like “I have relatives that don’t like potato jokes,” but that in no way addresses what I’ve said, much less show why it’s incorrect. > [@Colibri](#): > > It appears to be so. Like I said, he wouldn’t accept similar arguments made for other ethnic groups. It seem to me he is playing “Opposite Day.”😉 (That’s a joke.) Yikes. Consider my opinion about your sense of humor appropriately adjusted. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/77 "2020-06-12T20:58:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What a bizarre comment. Go by your own reading of the evidence: do YOU see evidence that Irish folks face any actual oppression in the modern US? If you read my posts, I’ve made the point that’s not the only issue. If you’re going to ignore that, there’s no point in engaging with you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/78 "2020-06-12T20:59:23Z")
I believe the appropriate bridge between the positions of Colibri and LHoD (two posters I like) is that while anti-Irish sentiment is nowhere near as significant today as bigoted sentiments against blacks and many other groups, especially in America, that doesn’t mean that anti-Irish slurs have totally lost their power and should be used freely without care, and thus these slurs, like other ethnic slurs, are still inappropriate for most of the forums on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/79 "2020-06-12T21:02:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Uh, no you haven’t. Before I wrote that, I read through all your posts in the thread, in case I’d missed any evidence of actual oppression in the US in the last half-century. You offered instead things like “I have relatives that don’t like potato jokes,” but that in no way addresses what I’ve said, much less show why it’s incorrect. This is an absurd characterization of what I’ve written. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/80 "2020-06-12T21:05:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe the appropriate bridge between the positions of Colibri and LHoD (two posters I like) is that while anti-Irish sentiment is nowhere near as significant today as bigoted sentiments against blacks and many other groups, especially in America, that doesn’t mean that anti-Irish slurs have totally lost their power and should be used freely without care, and thus these slurs, like other ethnic slurs, are still inappropriate for most of the forums on this board. Correct. I acknowledged in my posts that anti-Irish discrimination in the modern US is minimal. But it’s alive and well in other parts of the world that Irish-Americans identify with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=5)