# I don't understand this warning for puddleglum **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444 "2020-06-11T11:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/81 "2020-06-12T21:09:10Z")
The Irish face very little oppression these days, but I think tired ethnic jokes don’t really have a place here and Puddle’s seemed vicious not funny. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/82 "2020-06-12T21:11:02Z")
I can’t tell whether you’re hanging your hat on the discrimination that happens in other parts of the world, or whether you’re suggesting that even the minimal discrimination in the US is significant enough to warrant a warning. If it’s the former, it’s a bit much to expect a US-based poster to be fully cognizant of the extent of anti-Irish discrimination in the UK (which I admit I’m ignorant about: I know a modicum about US anti-Irish sentiment, and about anti-Irish sentiment pre-1990 in the UK, but next to nothing about significant anti-Irish bigotry in the UK in this millennium). If that’s actually a real problem, that’s where a note is more appropriate than a warning. If it’s the latter, that’s an unwise approach to moderating bigotry, especially when it’s used ironically and with no ill intent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/83 "2020-06-12T21:12:32Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The Irish face very little oppression these days, but I think tired ethnic jokes don’t really have a place here and Puddle’s seemed vicious not funny. FWIW, I don’t think “vicious” and “funny” are antonyms. Plenty of comedians are experts at saying vicious things in a funny manner. Contrariwise, if I disagree that something is vicious, that doesn’t mean I think it must be funny. Of course his joke was tired. My argument isn’t that it was funny, it’s that it wasn’t vicious. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/84 "2020-06-12T21:33:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > His ethnic slur works only because he so obviously doesn’t mean it: he’s clearly praising the Irish. Irrelevant. Applying ethnic slurs to groups of people is still potentially offensive even if you don’t mean the ethnic slurs seriously. “Just kidding” isn’t a sufficient justification. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What’s not rare, however, is for fully-assimilated white folks to decide they want in on that sweet sweet oppressed identity swag, and to reach for an ethnic history that allows them to claim persecution. Fiddlesticks. I’m not saying that there aren’t some Irish-Americans who, as described in my [previous link](https://www.theroot.com/when-the-irish-weren-t-white-1793358754), try to exaggerate the evils of anti-Irish oppression in comparison with slavery. But that doesn’t mean that anti-Irish oppression wasn’t a real thing, or that ethnic slurs against the Irish aren’t offensive. (And I’m not Irish at all myself, btw, but I can still remember the anti-Irish ditties my Ohioan uncle sang to me back in the '70s. I’m sure he was “just kidding” too.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/85 "2020-06-12T21:35:24Z")
You do know we have Irish posters on this board? Not Irish-Americans but actual posters that live in Ireland. I’m guessing they probably don’t love this shit and this weird ass defense. This board wouldn’t allow a lot of stuff that comedians say, not sure if you really want to use that argument. I like Chappelle, if he posted his routines on the Dope , he would be warned and then pretty quickly suspended at least. This looks more like you trying to attack \*\*Colibri \*\*than a reasonable defense to me. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/86 "2020-06-12T21:44:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I can’t tell whether you’re hanging your hat on the discrimination that happens in other parts of the world, or whether you’re suggesting that even the minimal discrimination in the US is significant enough to warrant a warning. To recap, at first Colibri thought that puddleglum “no doubt” meant it ironically, but it didn’t matter- in 2020 “potato eating savages” is right up there with “beaner” and “curry eater.” I know I’ve usually heard it said with the same type of vitriol - “I wish those potato eating savages would stop coming into my country and taking our jobs and stinking up the place.” He even went to the esteemed “Racial Slur database” as evidence The reason given for “potato-eater” being a slur: _Irish eat potatoes. Used in Gangs of New York._ I haven’t seen that movie yet. Gotta check it out. It must be about modern-day gangs in NYC, so it’s probably right up my alley. But then the moderator reread the few sentences he was weighing in on and changed his mind: > [@](#): > > On re-reading the full quote, it’s convinced me that the poster actually does have disdain for the Irish. Saying “I hate to give the [Irish] any credit” is a bigoted statement even without adding not one but two ethnic slurs. He’s saying that he doesn’t expect anything good from the Irish. It appears intent mattered to him, so minimal discrimination in the US against the Irish matters less when puddlegum apparently wasn’t using any irony at all in his post- it was all a literal insult. Good to know mods re-read posts to really understand what message is trying to be conveyed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/87 "2020-06-12T21:57:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I can’t tell whether you’re hanging your hat on the discrimination that happens in other parts of the world, or whether you’re suggesting that even the minimal discrimination in the US is significant enough to warrant a warning. > … I dont care if the level of anti-irish discrimination in the USA is enough for you or not. That’s not the point.\* In any case \*that remark was a ethnic slur. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/88 "2020-06-12T22:09:06Z")
It looked like a usage not intended to offend to me but how it looks to me is irrelevant according to the standards of the board. It is clear that direct racial or ethnic insults are typically moderated. Now, I’m not sure how threads that are like jokes that used to be funny will be interpreted or moderated so I don’t bother with those. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/89 "2020-06-12T23:03:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What’s not rare, however, is for fully-assimilated white folks to decide they want in on that sweet sweet oppressed identity swag, and to reach for an ethnic history that allows them to claim persecution. So being tired of potato and drink “jokes” means I’m actually just looking to be offended? Guess I must be in the wrong demographic. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/90 "2020-06-12T23:23:46Z")
^ I don’t see how your question could have arose from what you just quoted. Tired ≠ persecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/91 "2020-06-12T23:52:14Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > So being tired of potato and drink “jokes” means I’m actually just looking to be offended? Uh, no, it doesn’t. Are you actually offended, and are you actually, because of your Irish ethnicity, subject to oppression or persecution where you live? Or are you just tired of dumb jokes? > [@What Exit](#): > > You do know we have Irish posters on this board? Not Irish-Americans but actual posters that live in Ireland. I’m guessing they probably don’t love this shit and this weird ass defense. > > This board wouldn’t allow a lot of stuff that comedians say, not sure if you really want to use that argument. I like Chappelle, if he posted his routines on the Dope , he would be warned and then pretty quickly suspended at least. If there are Irish people who find posts like this actively offensive because it reminds them of the active persecution they face, it’d be helpful to hear from them–not about neighborhoods in the Bronx in the seventies, or the like. Again, the post was used as an ironic compliment to Ireland’s criminal justice system, and the very few Irish people I’ve known have had a scathing appreciation for ironic wit, so I don’t want to presume that our Irish posters are pissed off about this. In which case I’d think a note was appropriate. As for comedians, I’m afraid I wasn’t clear: when I talked about comedians saying vicious, funny things, I wasn’t defending them. I was saying that humor is no defense against a charge of viciousness, that funny and vicious aren’t antonyms. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Irrelevant. Applying ethnic slurs to groups of people is still potentially offensive even if you don’t mean the ethnic slurs seriously. “Just kidding” isn’t a sufficient justification. “Potentially” is a keyword. Context matters. When it’s applied to a group in a way that’s intended to be understood ironically and therefore as a compliment to the group, that’s a lot less offensive than when it’s used with a “just kidding” context. A person who says, “I can’t stand those stupid Poles, just kidding!” is saying something far more offensive than someone who says “Those stupid Poles in the Krakow School of Mathematics managed to revolutionize differential equations.” I can understand giving a note to the latter, but it should be evaluated differently. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/92 "2020-06-13T00:05:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Uh, no, it doesn’t. Are you actually offended, and are you actually, because of your Irish ethnicity, subject to oppression or persecution where you live? Or are you just tired of dumb jokes? I grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles so I guess I do know a bit about persecution, not that I consider it defining of me at all. To be honest, I found your trite dismissal in the post I quoted more offensive than the naked jabs that prompted this thread, but no matter. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > ^ I don’t see how your question could have arose from what you just quoted. Tired ≠ persecuted. I’m starting to understand how the women feel. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/93 "2020-06-13T00:09:48Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I’m starting to understand how the women feel. Oh, that’s rich! You asked a question that had zero to do with what you quoted, so I brought it to your attention for clarification. So, so sorry to offend you! ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/94 "2020-06-13T00:13:26Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I’m starting to understand how the women feel. The woman feel “tired” but not offended? I’ll let them know. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/95 "2020-06-13T00:38:37Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles so I guess I do know a bit about persecution, not that I consider it defining of me at all. > > To be honest, I found your trite dismissal in the post I quoted more offensive than the naked jabs that prompted this thread, but no matter. So that’s helpful to hear. Hearing that actual Irish folks are finding it bothersome (I’m not sure what line you’re drawing between “offended” and whatever state you’re finding yourself in but will defer to whatever you call it) surprises me, but I’ll take that as an education. Still figure puddleglum’s comment deserves a note, but I appreciate your input, and apologize for dismissing you. > [@](#): > > I’m starting to understand how the women feel. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/96 "2020-06-13T01:02:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I can’t tell whether you’re hanging your hat on the discrimination that happens in other parts of the world, or whether you’re suggesting that even the minimal discrimination in the US is significant enough to warrant a warning. > > If it’s the former, it’s a bit much to expect a US-based poster to be fully cognizant of the extent of anti-Irish discrimination in the UK (which I admit I’m ignorant about: I know a modicum about US anti-Irish sentiment, and about anti-Irish sentiment pre-1990 in the UK, but next to nothing about significant anti-Irish bigotry in the UK in this millennium). If that’s actually a real problem, that’s where a note is more appropriate than a warning. > > If it’s the latter, that’s an unwise approach to moderating bigotry, especially when it’s used ironically and with no ill intent. No, because your entire premise is wrong. Whether something is bigoted has little to do with how much current oppression exists in the country in which it is used. Nor does anyone require a full understanding of the history of oppression against a group to know that a term against them is bad. And if something is bigoted, saying it ironically doesn’t make it okay–it is exactly what you said about comedians. You also seem to think this is a UK-only thing. Have you never heard of “Irish need not apply”? The fact that the Irish were discriminated against when they first came to America is pretty common knowledge–it’s something that you should have learned in your American History class, along with the reason why being the Great Potato Famine, and why that was such a big deal. The question that is relevant is “did **puddleglum** know the word was offensive to Irish people?” You claim he used it ironically. How is that possible if he didn’t know it was offensive? He clearly did. And if you know the term is offensive to an ethnic group and use it anyways, that is bigoted. None of the rest of what you argued is relevant. Finally, you really should be wary of dictating to those affected whether or not something is bigoted. It would be like telling a black person that they were wrong to think the white person from the UK was being racist when they called them “watermelon-eating bastards.” ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/97 "2020-06-13T01:22:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You also seem to think this is a UK-only thing. Have you never heard of “Irish need not apply”? The fact that the Irish were discriminated against when they first came to America is pretty common knowledge–it’s something that you should have learned in your American History class Here, let me help you: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As an “Irish-American” who’s known for a quarter century about the 19th century race riots in NYC both by and against Irish immigrants > … > > who’s looked at Typhoid Mary through the lens of anti-Irish bigotry > … > > it’s that most of us recognize that in modern America it’s virtually vanished. > > Yes, sixty years ago there were vestiges of it; but today you’d be hard-pressed to find someone in the US with a genuine prejudice against the Irish. > … > > And while historically of course there’s been vicious bigotry against the Irish in the US, your most recent example of it is more than half a century old, and for good reason: such prejudice is, in the modern US, vanishingly rare. > … > > in case I’d missed any evidence of actual oppression in the US in the last half-century. You offered instead things like “I have relatives that don’t like potato jokes,” but that in no way addresses what I’ve said, much less show why it’s incorrect. Hmm. Somehow I think he made it very clear that he doesn’t think this is a UK-only thing and doesn’t need to Google “Irish need not apply” for clarity. > [@](#): > > The question that is relevant is “did **puddleglum** know the word was offensive to Irish people?” You claim he used it ironically. How is that possible if he didn’t know it was offensive? He clearly did. How many times are you going to prove that you don’t pay attention? No one claimed he didn’t know it wasn’t offensive. The OPPOSITE has been claimed by the poster you wrote your response to! Reread and if you need help, I’ll be glad to help you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/98 "2020-06-13T01:31:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, because your entire premise is wrong. Cool ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/99 "2020-06-13T03:10:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m all for civility in the debate forums, and I’ve even tried to get negative political nicknames banned. I think that drive-by slurs are a bad thing and add nothing to a debate. > > However, mild humor like this can lighten things up. I get that it’s a slur, sort of, but it’s such a harmless joke that I don’t understand the warning. Just so everyone is clear, ‘slurs’ are NEVER harmless. They harm both parties ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444/100 "2020-06-13T03:41:45Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles so I guess I do know a bit about persecution, not that I consider it defining of me at all. > > To be honest, I found your trite dismissal in the post I quoted more offensive than the naked jabs that prompted this thread, but no matter. > > I’m starting to understand how the women feel. Another ‘just to be clear’, without knowing the gender to which you identify, I doubt you know how all women feel. We aren’t monolithic. I identify as a woman and you don’t know how I feel (except, perhaps, about this). And ‘the women’ makes it worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-this-warning-for-puddleglum/855444.md?page=6)