# I don't understand what voters Trump could've picked up between 2016 and 2020

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722>\
**Category:** Politics & Elections\
**Created:** [November 4, 2020, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722 "2020-11-04T08:30:32Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 18\
**Page:** 19

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**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/361 "2020-11-21T13:35:06Z")

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I agree with @Kimstu in that I think you’re extrapolating from the painfully few to the many.

What I see – and it is inarguably how my beloved family member came to her position – is the constant invocation of the very broad term, “socialism” as pure demagoguery and McCarthyism.

If I asked my kin to delineate between (notice my adoption of the correct term) social democracy and Castro-style socialism, she wouldn’t have a clue. She’s also joined the crowd that throws “Marxism” in there for good measure now – again – not having any idea what the words mean.

The current Top Marginal Tax Rate is, what – 37% ? And that kicks in at an AGI of over half a million dollars ?

Ignoring for the moment that well over half (usually 2/3rds) of Americans support higher taxes on the wealthy … to many Trump supporters … merely considering raising that top marginal rate to – say – 38% is socialist.

Trump said the US “will never be a socialist country.”

I don’t doubt that there’s a huge messaging problem on the left, but – as it is in so many regards – it’s a failure to find digestible, effective, simplistic _truths_ that can overwhelm the fire hose of fiction that comes from the right.

Remember: the country was overwhelmingly in favor of each and every component of the AHCA, in polls, until – that is – they were asked their opinion of “Obamacare.”

The ‘socialism’ vs. social democracy thing is best exemplified by that classic Tea party picket sign: Government, keep your hands off my Medicare.

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**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/362 "2020-11-21T17:12:01Z")

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> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Republicans have gotten really good at offering that candy to the hyperactive 2 year old that is screaming in the middle of the grocery store. They know it won’t quiet them down, but they also know that it will keep them from ever growing up to understand that the vegetable isle is _not_ a punishment.

I know that it’s a slight typo, but the vision of the “vegetable isle” just tickles me. I’m assuming that’s where Veggie Tales happens - an island of nothing but anthropomorphic vegetables. Island of lost souls; Skull Island, and now Vegetable Isle.

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**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2020, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/363 "2020-11-22T08:16:31Z")

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> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Democratic Socialists are hard socialists who believe in bringing down capitalism and replacing it with worker-controlled industry, somehow

I just thought I’d mention that Democratic Socialists (who claimed to believe in bringing down capitalism and replacing it with socialism) have occasionally been in power in Australia, but they weren’t ‘hard’ – they didn’t see a way clear to actually enforcing their party policy of bringing down capitalism and replacing it with socialism.

More recently – within my memory – the party removed socialism from their platform, in order to make themselves more attractive to the general electorate, but there is still a socialist faction within the party.

And also, “Democratic Socialists” don’t all have the aim of implementing _worker_ control. That’s a syndicalist position, and it’s not a majority position within any democratic socialist party or faction that I’m aware of.

So, just “who believe in bringing down capitalism” and replacing it with socialism. Not hard or syndicalist. Unless you believe any socialist is a “hard” socialist, which is not a helpful distinction.

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**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/364 "2020-11-25T00:38:13Z")

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> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Cite for that 10-20% figure?

You won’t ever get a cite for that figure. You will hear crickets.

That’s because the figure listed is merely a an example of the funny straw man that the right wing erects to bash the “other team” with.

“A bunch of you are raving socialists, and here’s a number I made up to support that assertion.”

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**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/365 "2020-11-25T12:40:29Z")

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> **[This Political Theorist Predicted the Rise of Trumpism. His Name Was Hunter...](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/this-political-theorist-predicted-the-rise-of-trumpism-his-name-was-hunter-s-thompson/)**
>
> In Hell’s Angels, the gonzo journalist wrote about left-behind people motivated only by “an ethic of total retaliation.” Sound familiar?

This article is from 2016, but I think it still may best capture Trump’s special and unique appeal – a big chunk of his voters wanted chaos and cruelty. Either the portion of the electorate that wanted chaos and cruelty expanded, or there was a chunk of millions that wanted chaos and cruelty but didn’t vote in 2016, perhaps because they weren’t convinced that Trump would deliver sufficient chaos and cruelty.

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**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/366 "2020-11-26T23:04:51Z")

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> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> You won’t ever get a cite for that figure. You will hear crickets.

> **[Poll: Sanders Rises, But Socialism Isn't Popular With Most Americans](https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/807047941/poll-sanders-rises-but-socialism-isnt-popular-with-most-americans)**
>
> An NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll finds that socialism is unpopular with voters overall, even as Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is gaining in the Democratic primary.

Socialism isn’t popular with Americans as a whole, but within the Democratic party the majority prefer socialism to capitalism (50%-46%). Only 7% of Republicans and 23% of independents agree.

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**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/367 "2020-11-26T23:41:15Z")

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> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> {…} Also, the left should really retire the term ‘LatinX’. It’s condescending and kind of racist. Hispanic people from different regions have rich and varied backgrounds just like everyone else, and they shouldn’t be lumped together under one label like that. {…}

What? Please explain the term ‘LatinX’ so the rest of us can understand it as well as you do.

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**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/368 "2020-11-27T00:18:48Z")

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> [@crowmanyclouds](#):
>
> What? Please explain the term ‘LatinX’ so the rest of us can understand it as well as you do.

Seriously? Ok.

> **[Latinx](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx)**
>
> Latinx is an English neologism used to refer to people with Latin American cultural or ethnic identity in the United States. The term aims to be a gender-neutral alternative to Latino and Latina by replacing the masculine ⟨-o⟩ and feminine ⟨-a⟩ ending with the ⟨-x⟩ suffix. The plural for Latinx is Latinxs or Latinxes. The term was first seen online around 2004; it has since been used in social media by activists, students, and academics who seek to advocate for non-binary and genderqueer indi...

> **[Views on Latinx as a pan-ethnic term for U.S. Hispanics](https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2020/08/11/views-on-latinx-as-a-pan-ethnic-term-for-u-s-hispanics/)**
>
> Note: For the Center’s 2024 report on Latinx and other pan-ethnic terms, read “Latinx Awareness Has Doubled Among U.S. Hispanics Since 2019, but

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**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/369 "2020-11-27T00:30:59Z")

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Yeah, I can Google too. Now how exactly is it racist?

I’ll remind you,  
{…} It’s condescending and kind of racist. Hispanic people from different regions have rich and varied backgrounds just like everyone else, and they shouldn’t be lumped together under one label like that. {…}  
What part of that Wikivomit addresses the above?

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**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/370 "2020-11-27T01:19:39Z")

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> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> This is a serious messaging problem Democrats have. Within their ranks are maybe 10-20% hard socialists who think the Venezuela/Cuba model is fine if only the right people tried it.

I am a little confused by your cite.

Your initial claim was: “This is a serious messaging problem Democrats have. Within their ranks are maybe 10-20% hard socialists who think the Venezuela/Cuba model is fine if only the right people tried it.”

You were asked for a cite for the claim that within the ranks of Democrats are 10-20% hard socialists who think Venezuela/Cuba model is fine.

Your cite does not support your claim. Sorry.

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**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/371 "2020-11-27T02:49:02Z")

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May I also point out that what exists in Cuba is in no way Democratic Socialism. It’s outright communist dictatorship. And I have not seen either Canada or Britain sliding into communism for having had UHC.

I mean, what, we’re disqualifying regimes and parties where leftist policies actually benefit the people from being referred to as “socialist”, just because? Anyway saying Socialism = Cuba is like saying the Tories = Fascism. It’s just using snarl words.

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**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/372 "2020-11-27T02:58:45Z")

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> [@crowmanyclouds](#):
>
> Hispanic people from different regions have rich and varied backgrounds just like everyone else, and they shouldn’t be lumped together under one label like that

What are you trying to say?

“Latino” and “Hispanic” are (in many contexts) basically interchangeable words. They’re umbrella terms that encompass the same, diverse panoplies of people

(Most academics prefer “Latino,” and the word or its equivalents is used in Spanish in most of Latin America, whereas the Spanish word “Hispano” is rare, mainly confined to certain US-based cultures).

So when you say “Hispanic peoples shouldn’t be lumped together,” that’s hilarious, because the word “Hispanic” lumps peoples together exactly as much as “Latino” does — no more, no less.

The only problem with “Latino” is that, to Spanish speakers, it happens to emphasize the male half of those populations, because the neutral, default suffix for Spanish adjectives is the masculine form.

Hence the recent neologism -x. Nothing whatsoever to with lumping.

ETA: It occurs to me that you might be asserting that “Latino” implicitly excludes the indigenous peoples of the Americas, because they speak languages not derived from Latin? No, that can’t be it, because “Hispanic” implies “from Spain.”  
So, I got nuthin’.  
Brazilians are Latino but not Hispanic — could that be it? No…  
No idea what you’re after, but I look forward to finding out!)

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**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/373 "2020-11-27T03:01:44Z")

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That part should have had quote marks at least, so you’re addressing Sam\_Stone not me.

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**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/374 "2020-11-27T03:04:18Z")

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> [@crowmanyclouds](#):
>
> That part should have had quote marks at least, so you’re addressing Sam\_Stone not me

Ah…sorry if I mistook who said what.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/375 "2020-11-27T03:06:54Z")

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Sadly, you spent more time addressing it then, I fear, Sam ever will.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/376 "2020-11-27T03:09:26Z")

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Tru dat!

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**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/377 "2020-11-27T04:32:51Z")

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> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> This is a serious messaging problem Democrats have. Within their ranks are maybe 10-20% hard socialists who think the Venezuela/Cuba model is fine if only the right people tried it.

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Cite for that 10-20% figure? AFAICT it doesn’t seem to square with the tiny number of Democratic elected officials and activists who are actually advocating policies realistically comparable to those of Venezuela and Cuba.
> 
> Now, if you’re just using the phrase “think the Venezuela/Cuba model is fine” as a loose paraphrase for “are willing to vote for something that bears the ‘socialism’ label as long as they agree with its general substance”, then your estimate is massively lowballed. People who fall in that category in fact comprise [76% of Democrats, not to mention 45% of Independents and even 17% of Republicans](https://www.newsweek.com/76-percent-democrats-say-theyd-vote-socialist-president-new-poll-shows-1486732).

> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Socialism isn’t popular with Americans as a whole, but within the Democratic party the majority prefer socialism to capitalism (50%-46%). Only 7% of Republicans and 23% of independents agree.

Sam, as Euphonious\_Polemic noted above, you didn’t actually answer my question about what evidence you have to support your claim in post #358 that “maybe 10-20%” of Democrats are “hard socialists who think the Venezuela/Cuba model is fine if only the right people tried it”.

Your feeble attempt at a non-crickets comeback in post #366 didn’t accomplish anything except to corroborate that Democrats as a group are much less antagonistic to the term “socialism” than Independents or Republicans, which my previous response to you (post #359) had already pointed out.

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**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-what-voters-trump-couldve-picked-up-between-2016-and-2020/924722/378 "2020-11-29T02:35:06Z")

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> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> This is a serious messaging problem Democrats have. Within their ranks are maybe 10-20% hard socialists who think the Venezuela/Cuba model is fine if only the right people tried it.

I have never met one, and I am a lifetime dem and I have worked quite a bit with them in the past, actually being nominated for office, etc. Now I have met a good number that say the Nordic Model of Democratic socialism is a great idea. And I think that may be a good point.

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