Well it is if the pupose of your vote is to help your side win (a binary result).
All I’m saying is, you don’t need to vote. You can open up the paper the day after election day and not a thing will have changed if you’d voted the other way on every issue.
But, it’s more than just the fact that you’re only 1/110,000,000 of the voice.
People want to view the election as “one for A, one for B, two for A, two for B, so on and so forth until one exceeds the other without doubt”. But, the election really is like a massive opinion poll. No, technically it’s not because the votes ARE the results – nobody thinks of an election as a poll(*). We think of it as a complete survey of all the people who care enough to vote.
But in actuality, they do function as opinion polls. If enough of the country believes one way, that’s the way the election goes. That’s why ad campaigns are significant. Adding your voice, even to small local issues doesn’t change the results of that opinion poll.
That’s also why being able to swing massive blocs of voters (soccer moms, UAW, Nascar dads, the elderly) is important.
That’s also why getting your party out to vote on election day is significant. At that point, the message is received, and opinions are decided. Now, it becomes a matter of who gets “the phone call” for that opinion poll. (don’t get hung up on the fact that it’s self-selecting. The “selection” that I’m talking about is the encouragement of your base to “self-select”.)
Because they function as massive opinion polls, we need not be concerned with whether 40% turn out on election day or 90% turn out on election day. Why? Because the 40% represents the public opinion well enough. As long as there is no reason to think that “showing up” is correlated with one of the issues, the chance that the results will change if the remaining 60% of the populace turns up to vote is miniscule.
The funny thing is – people know this. Many people. They just don’t KNOW they know it. Or they won’t admit it to themselves. Everyone has reasons not to vote. If they really thought their vote was significant they wouldn’t pass up the chance to vote because “it was too crowded at the poll” or “junior had the sniffles” or the multitude of other reasons people don’t vote. They know they can look in the paper the next day and go, “yeah, it wouldn’t have made a difference if I went.”
But, those are just ways of dealing with guilt. Guilt that SHOULDN’T exists, but DOES because from the moment you’re born you’re inundated with the message that you’re morally flawed if you don’t vote.
(*) Actually, they do function somewhat like opinion polls, because there is an acceptable margin of error in them, and if the results are closer than that, the results are considered valid, i.e. there’s a recount. The only difference is that in elections, we consider the margin of error to be from the election process, not the sampling.
Sorry, but I really don’t see how it affects ME at all. How does who the president is affect me?
You know what I did when Clinton was president? Got up every day, went to work, paid my taxes, kissed my wife, played with my dogs. Took the occasional vacation.
You know what I do every day now that Bush is president? Get up every day, go to work, pay my taxes, kiss my wife, play with my dogs. Take the occasional vacation.
Oh, sure, it affects SOME people’s lives. There’s probably someone who would still be alive if Gore was elected president in 2000.
But, to a lot of us. . .I don’t think there’s a single way that issues or elected people affects us at all. Oh, sure, if one guy is running who wants to turn Baltimore into a nuclear testing ground, that affects me. But the differences between candidates – in ways that REALLY affect me, and I don’t just mean a few bucks here or there in taxes – are primarily inconsequential to my life, and probably yours, too.
Well, as long as the differences are trivial, like you say… :rolleyes:
Pardon me if you and the OP come across as completely self-absorbed. So, unless it is you or your son that goes to war, so long as it’s someone else that can’t get any sort of disability services, so long as it’s one of those people in NO that can’t get disaster relief, so long as it’s just the old folks that can’t get their drugs, or the teenage girls that can’t get birth control or abortions, then you are just fine?
That’s just great. I’m happy for you. But don’t expect me to respect you for this attitude.
I don’t think anyone here is pushing for forcing people to vote. But the more people that don’t care, the more power is ceded to people that don’t necessarily have their best interests in mind…and power given is not easy to recover. Enough slices of 1/150,000,000 and you have ceased to be part of a democratic republic and you head into ‘hopefully benevolent dictator’ territory.
Thing is, I’m not in any sort of endangered class either, unless they start rounding up all of the incredibly attractive West Indian men. That doesn’t absolve me of my responsibility to my family or my neighbors. And every day, I see government decisions that affect us all, sometimes in profound ways.
sigh
This topic does push a lot of buttons, so if my tone was over the line, I apologize. But to be as apathetic as you seem to be…it just rubs me (and others, it seems) the wrong way.
I think everyone should vote because they should care about the world around them, but it isn’t a requirement, so you are completely within your rights not to give a shit. However. you are mistaken in thinking that it doesn’t affect you. It most certainly does! You live here in the U.S. of A. and therefore you are affected by politics.
I know what you mean. There is a lot of information to digest, and it can be very difficult to give a shit to the same degree lots of people do. But a basic understanding of politics can go a long way in helping you understand who you are. You don’t need to be a political science major to get the gist of what’s going on, and it’s not nearly as painful as you might think.
Well, actually you do have a right to complain. There’s no prerequisite involved in bitching about the world you live in. It’s a bit silly, since there are things you can do to change your world if you don’t like it, but it’s still your right.
What about other people? Don’t you care about how their lives play out with regard to political opinion?
I personally think it’s good to vote. I think you’re wrong but it’s your right. I believe that certain kinds of apathy are harmful people as individuals, and this happens to be one of them.
First of all just because I believe that my vote doesn’t count doesn’t mean I don’t care about the results or that I don’t care about politics. You call a non-voter apathetic. Whereas, I just consider it illogical to vote. Huge difference. Huge. And I’m not just saying that as some sort of rationalization (I don’t think anything has to be rationalized). Equating non-voting with apathy is just a piece of the “voting is your civic duty” propaganda, and I don’t buy into that kind of thinking.
As to the other part – obviously, I chose the most egregious example of what could happen when one guy gets elected over another. So, kudos to you for recognizing that. :rolleyes:
But, that was in response to iluvurmom who was trying to say, “of course who the president is affects you”. When, in reality, it doesn’t.
It affects other people, and I might have an opinion on that, but that jsut cycles back to whether I think voting is making my opinion heard, which I don’t.
Yeah, but if you do none of these things and care about your country, it is the kind of caring that is indistinguishable from not caring about your country. I posit that if your behavior in no way diverges from someone who does not care with the lone exception of mentioning that you do on a message board, then you do not, in fact, care.
Well, here we go. Allow yourself to look outside the box…please.
War in Iraq- several of my friends are stationed throughout the Middle East. Each day I think about them and their safety. Their family depends on them coming home safely. I disagree with the war. I do however believe that we have made our bed and now we must lie in them. The currrent president’s stand how the war will be handled as well as stand the next presidental candidates have will affect me.
Supreme Court Nominees- Abortion rights are an extremely hot topic. The nominees the president has elected will greatly effect these rights. As woman this also affects me.
Social Security Reform - Another issue that was previously a hot topic and will continue to remain on the forefront for the next few election will also affect my financial future.
So yes, when Clinton was president, I too went to work each day, came home, kissed my boyfriend, played with my dog and went to sleep. Now that Bush is president, I go to work each day, come home, kiss my boyfriend, play with my dog and go to sleep. But the difference is, that I also educate myself on the issues everyday. I keep up to date on what’s going on. So that when the next election comes around, I can continue to do all of those things - while knowing that the person I voted for will do their best to bring our troops home as soon as possible, protect my right to choose, and keep social security while encouraging diversified personal investments.
That’s my opinion. And because I live in a country where people demanded a right to their freedom of speech, I can say it.
If I complain, no politician will listen? If I write a letter to my congressman, do they go check the lists from the last election, and if my name isn’t on it, they won’t listen no matter how valid my point?
Shit – even when you discuss politics HERE, do you demand to see proof that your “opponent” has voted?
When someone calls into a talk radio show with a point to make, do they check if they voted?
If you write a letter to the editor, do they check if you voted?
Just what is irrelevant about the person who doesn’t vote.
Just what is this argument that a person who doesn’t vote has an invalid viewpoint. First of all, it’s nonsensical. Second of all, it’s unverifiable. It’s a non-argument. It is nothing more than “nyah nyah nyah voting propaganda” crap.
But you don’t. The people who are most effective at getting their message out decide all the elections.
Those of us who DON’T vote – statistically – have the exact same opinions as those of you who DO vote. You don’t decide the elections. You just do the bidding of the ad campaigns. Believe me, I understand why that would make you guys upset, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to play along.
So … voting is meaningless because campaigns influence how people vote? Hm, neat. But why would a campaign try to get people to vote one way or another if voting decides nothing?
Cite?
So when I study the issues at hand, it’s not because I want to make an informed decision, but because I want to justify my desire to serve ad campaigns?
I’ll address your longer post when I’ve the time. In the meantime, perhaps you’ll respond to some more of my earlier questions?
You seem to me to have some idea of what is going on in today’s politcal climate. I understand some people don’t vote because they know nothing about the candidates, the issues. To them, I say educate yourself. I say it should be important to them, personally, to keep a finger on the pulse of America and stay informed, to a certian extent.
But, you. And correct me if I am wrong. You seem somewhat informed and yet you choose not to vote?? I just have such have a hard time understanding your rationalization. I apologize if I seem angry in these rants and raves of mine (as I attempt to typically keep these thing pretty light), but I just don’t understand how another-wise articulate and seemingly informed individual would just not even make the effort to fill in a bubble and place a vote.
Trunk, I’ve argued with you about voting before and have no desire to do so again. But I thought of you the other day when I was listening to news reports about the earthquake in Kashmir. They are going to need a SHITLOAD of money to take care of all of these people. In your opinion, is it worthwhile to send $20 because that’s what you can spare, or is it preferable just to ignore it because after all, what difference does $20 make?
Oh, and don’t ask, isn’t voting mandatory in Australia?
I read all of the snipped part just to let you know :p.
I do think it would be pretty bad, yeah. But I also think that, like me, people have their own choice to vote or not. I don’t think I would be responsible for them not voting in any way, and yeah, I know you’re trying to make a point regarding “what if everyone else was like you and didn’t care to vote”…but see, I would only be accountible for my one vote, not anyone else’s, for one…and for two, I don’t ever see that hypothtical happening. IF it ever was the case, though, I suppose it could have the potential to be bad, but again…first off, that is their choice not to vote as well, and for two, what I said earlier, I’d like to THINK that any person in nomination of president would have the best interests at hand. If they don’t,…well, all you have from me is one vote that I simply didn’t cast. As for others, I can’t control what they do…and since this is a hypothetical anyway, I’d hope most of the flack would be on the entire nation, in that case for not caring, rather than just one person.
iluvurmom:
Well, I don’t complain. I don’t think I have a right to…so we seem to be in agreement about that.
I have said in this thread before that it hasn’t seemed to affect my life in any way. But again, this is only 8 years after the fact that I could do anything about it, since I’m 25. So far, with GWB, it hasn’t made a difference. With Clinton, it didn’t make a difference. My life didn’t change much. Could it? Well, yeah, probably, but I honestly don’t see it happening SO dramatically that it would make me want to say “WOW, I really need to start voting for president in the next election, I can hardly live.” Again, that is just ME. Just my basis and what I’m content with. I just don’t care who is in office. I’m happy with anyone. Or content rather.
acsenray
Well, sorry if this sounds cold hearted, but they can choose to vote for whoever they want. Me, I choose not to vote. From this question, I get the sense of you basically saying that my vote, my one vote and not casting it would affect their lives in so many negative ways, to the point of them not even being able to live anymore.
It’s my vote. I’m not stopping others from voting. I’m not going out and trying to convince others to not vote. Those people at the V.A hospital have the right to vote for whoever they want or even the right to give up the right to vote, like me.
You seem to be now putting the fate of others in my hands. Vote so that your friends may live!
No, you didn’t say that. It was a general statement. It’s the point of what I seem to be getting from you.
And without my vote, I can bet that it would still go on in that regard more or less. Just sans one person’s vote.
Well, I like to think of myself as responsible and caring…I just don’t see how not voting makes someone that way. It just seems like people are attibuting all these traits to voting like caring for your countrymen, caring about your country, caring about your health, being lazy, etc.
Choosing not to vote doesn’t automatically make a person that way.
Or, I just don’t care about who is president. So if that, to you, is not caring about anything or anybody, then I guess we just have two majorly different definitions of caring.
I’m following along with what Trunk is saying and I have to say that a lot of it is the same for me. Who is president just doesn’t seem to affect ME. Me, myself, and I. So me, I don’t vote and don’t care to, that’s all.
Now, WOULD it affect others? I have no idea! I’m not them. They can choose to cast their own vote (or not) when the time comes. Since when am I responsible for what they do? And no, this doesn’t mean I don’t care about people. It doesn’t mean that my one vote would soley make the end all difference in their lives and turn it into a complete 360. As far as I can tell, my friends and everyone I know have gotten along fine since I had the right to vote and didn’t. Maybe that’s closed or boxed thinking, cause yeah, I don’t know everyone in the world…but again, I don’t see how I’m responsible for their lives or what they do. And I don’t mean that to sound coldhearted. I do care about people and this country.
I just don’t vote. Me, just me, because I don’t care who is in office. I’m content with anyone that America votes for, and don’t give me any “but what if others didn’t vote?” and “What if they pick someone like Hitler?” (two things that weren’t said at all in this thread, but they’re just examples), that is not what’s happening. And I don’t see it ever happening in my lifetime either.
Kalhoun: I read all your points and all of your post. Thank you for being cordial. You do make good points, and I think I probably should be more knowing about the world around me and politics in general. It just seems to bore me to death. I can’t seem to get an interest in it.
As for your question:
Gah! I don’t know how to answer this question without coming off sounding bad, but I just don’t see why it’s up to ME and my one vote that takes care of others and has that major of an impact. I mention this a lot above in some of my ramblings.
Trunk, Surely you’re aware that the election does not go to the person with the best ad campaign, but to the person who received the most votes. The only reason their are ad campaigns is to convince people to vote for certain candidates. Your argument that a vote is irrelevant is simply, obviously, false. The outcome of people’s actions is different fro the outcome of inaction. If only a few thousand people in Florida had voted differently in 2000, the country which you and idle thoughts claim to care about would be much different.
I also retract my statement that someone who claims to care about their country but doesn’t vote is like someone who claims to care about their health but doesn’t watch their diet or exercize. The latter person is much more respectable than the non-voter. Taking care of your health requires an almost daily discipline. Voting requires only that you drag yourself to the local polling place once every two years or so.
Again, if you’re simply apathetic, that’s your choice and right. But don’t claim to care about your country if you can’t bring yourself to undertake the minimal effort required in voting. Because it’s obvious you don’t.
Well, if you are not a registered voter, they can tell that you don’t vote. So yes, they won’t listen.
Why should they?
Not invalid - irrelevant.
Look at it this way - maybe you scream to the high heavens about, say, the war in Iraq. (Pretend for the moment that you actually write letters to the editor or call into political talk shows or whatever, but don’t vote. I find it hard to believe that you would be engaged in so many other ways, but not vote, but grant it for the sake of the argument.)
Now your well-reasoned arguments convince 60% of the people of your position. So Perry Peacenik runs for office on a position of “out of Iraq now!” He is running against Millie Militarist, who wants to continue the current situation in Iraq, and has only convinced the mindless bloodthirsty folks like me.
We have an election. Half the folks who are convinced of Perry’s arguments stay home and don’t vote. All of us mindless pro-war drones vote for Millie.
Guess what happens in Iraq? Your position might be perfectly valid, but if you don’t trouble yourself to vote, it matters not at all. You are irrelevant to the political process.
And then you can certainly complain. And Millie would be perfectly rational to ignore you completely. She doesn’t have to know how you voted. Cverall the election returns have shown that those who are engaged in the political process are on her side, and the rest don’t matter.
And you understand that it takes the collective votes of a lot of people in order for something to get done. People whom you care about and the country which you say you care about can be changed significantly when people who believe that a particular policy is good or bad don’t show up to vote.
That might very well be the case.
And one vote can make the difference between what policy gets implemented and what policy doesn’t get implemented.
[quote]
Who is president just doesn’t seem to affect ME. Me, myself, and I. So me, I don’t vote and don’t care to, that’s all.[/quote
And this statement, really, is important to the question of whether you care about your country or your countrymen. “Caring” does not mean that you think only about what affects you directly, right now.