# I doubt the existence of ghosts/God/supernatural things will ever be factually proved **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750 "2008-12-04T21:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/61 "2008-12-08T16:22:09Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But I know that Burger King has posted locations on their site in the past, and they were accurate. Therefore, I can have faith that they’ll continue to post accurate information on their site. When it’s wrong, I freely admit I was led astray by inaccurate information. That’s not really faith though; that’s trust, and trust based on past evidence and on the self interest of Burger King ( sending a hungry person to the wrong spot doesn’t profit them ). Faith is believing **without** evidence, or even against it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/62 "2008-12-08T16:30:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s not really faith though; that’s trust, and trust based on past evidence and on the self interest of Burger King ( sending a hungry person to the wrong spot doesn’t profit them ). Faith is believing **without** evidence, or even against it. You’re right. I stand corrected. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/63 "2008-12-08T16:38:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I doubt it. Based on what evidence? > [@](#): > > And what does any of that have to do with God or the supernatural ? It has to do with your _understanding_ of those things, and your competence to comment on them. > [@](#): > > The ether was head and shoulders above God or ghosts in plausibility. I believe that says it all. A, which you know to be false (one assumes), is head and shoulders more plausible than B, which you don’t. > [@](#): > > And Newton’s equations are still used. They were a limited approximation, not wrong. Didn’t say they were wrong, but I do believe that without someone whom you accept as an authority having told you they are a “limited approximation”, you’d hold them up as gospel. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what you are trying to insult me about here. But it’s silly for a religious person to complain about someone else railing about imaginary entities. Once again, you have failed to read for comprehension. The word I used was “enemies”, not “entities”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/64 "2008-12-08T16:56:33Z")
How do you figure he doesn’t have an understanding of the concepts of the supernatural or that he’s not competent to comment on them? It sounds to me like he understands it just fine; he just doesn’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/65 "2008-12-08T16:57:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Based on what evidence? Because I’d have no reason to ? > [@Liberal](#): > > It has to do with your _understanding_ of those things, and your competence to comment on them. There’s not much to understand. It’s garbage. You might as well demand my credentials for commenting on people who believe in fairies or the power of healing crystals. > [@Liberal](#): > > I believe that says it all. A, which you know to be false (one assumes), is head and shoulders more plausible than B, which you don’t. The ether, being a claim of a substance existing in the real word obeying physical laws was far more plausible than a a God that supposedly doesn’t even exist in the world and ignores all physical laws. And is usually given attributes that both contradict themselves and reality. The people who invented the idea of the ether had no reason to think it wrong at the time. There’s plenty of reasons to consider belief in God incorrect. There’s NEVER, in all of human history been any good reason to believe in God. > [@Liberal](#): > > Didn’t say they were wrong, but I do believe that without someone whom you accept as an authority having told you they are a “limited approximation”, you’d hold them up as gospel. Don’t confuse me with yourself; you are the one who thinks that faith and denial of reality are good ideas, not me. > [@Liberal](#): > > Once again, you have failed to read for comprehension. The word I used was “enemies”, not “entities”. And enemies are entities. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/66 "2008-12-08T16:58:43Z")
I’m waiting for hologram technology to reach the point where fake ghosts can be created with such ease that stories of “real” ghosts get dismissed out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Haddock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@Captain\_Haddock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Haddock)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/67 "2008-12-08T17:36:07Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > And for those of you people who don’t believe in God/ghosts/etc…I want to know this specifically: What WOULD work as proof to you, personally, that these things existed? Would anything? Anything that you couldn’t just explain? Since I’m not much of a philosopher I’ll just quote Hume who expresses it better than I can. “The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), ‘that no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish.” If you find evidence to match that description let me know, though I won’t be holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/68 "2008-12-08T17:43:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It has to do with your _understanding_ of those things, and your competence to comment on them. I’d like to request a clarification, please. Are you challenging Der Trihs’ understanding specifically, or using the general “you” in your assertion to encompass anyone who does not have faith? Either way, what constitutes “understanding and [sic] competence to comment”? A degree in theology? A passing grade of a 200 or higher seminary class? If we are to take the bible as the literal word of god, then no person can understand or attempt to define god or his works. Nice loophole for god but not really workable for the current discussion. I also take issue with the idea that only those with faith can understand. Comprehension is not based on belief but ability to grasp certain concepts and exhibit understanding of those concepts. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > But I know that Burger King has posted locations on their site in the past, and they were accurate. Therefore, I can have faith that they’ll continue to post accurate information on their site. When it’s wrong, I freely admit I was led astray by inaccurate information. In addition, the reality of the Burger King remains falsifiable by its physical existence. The building exists in three dimensions and the food sold and the people wearing uniforms inside lend credence to the physical evidence that it is indeed a Burger King which occupies that address. The fact that people can come back the next day and the next and the next and it is still a Burger King proves extensive testing. For myself, I am not picky. Simply point at the entity calling itself god. So long as it exists in three (or more) dimensions and is able to exhibit the qualities it has claimed to possess consistently over time then we’re all good. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/69 "2008-12-08T18:55:21Z")
Another important consideration is that IF a supernatural being were proven to exist, you would also have to prove that it had the capabilities attributed to a god. Simply existing as a disembodied entity, interesting as that may be, does not mean it is “all powerful”. If it cannot punish, approve, teach, guide, control, hate, create, or care, would you continue to worship it? There’s another whole level of magic being attributed to god – and existence alone is no big deal, by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/70 "2008-12-08T18:57:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’ve worried myself to death over something similar: I fear that we may never find theological proof of general relativity. A better analogy to your analogy would be a scientific “proof” that stealing is wrong or that slavery is good or bad. Some scientists have attempted such, but they are operating out of the range of their competence. If “supernatural” things impact the natural world they or their effect can be examined using natural tools. I don’t care if people want to shift them into the natural category then. So far we have no confirmed evidence of the effect of anything supernatural. We have lots of people reporting supernatural events, but there are better explanations so far. There have been no StaPuft marshmallow men walking down Broadway. If religions want to argue ethics, fine, but they have no more call on us than the arguments of atheist ethicists. So scientific examination of supernatural claims is perfectly valid, if a bit frustrating due to the lack of good evidence. As for **DerTrihs** , I’ve seen nothing to indicate that he wouldn’t accept relativity given the evidence of its validity presented. He mentioned the excellent example of the neutrino, that ghostlike particle we accept now because evidence of its existence confirming the theory was found. Maybe the problem is not his unwillingness to follow the evidence but rather your lack of evidence worth following. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/71 "2008-12-08T19:11:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, evidence is much more important than theories, but theories can at least tell you where to look for evidence, and can serve as limited evidence themselves if they imply something exists, and have themselves been proven in other areas. Rather like the law of conservation of energy implying the neutrino; they couldn’t detect them for some time, but were sure they must exist because otherwise that would mean that energy was just vanishing. Well said. However the God\ hypothesis does tell us where to look for evidence. It tells us to look for evidence of the Flood, of the Davidic Empire, of the wandering in the desert. Any interesting God hypothesis tells us where to look for evidence. The problem is that no evidence backing the hypothesis was ever found. The Steady State theory told us where to look for evidence also. Once contradictory evidence was found, anyone still holding it was considered sad or a crackpot. But at least even people like Fred Hoyle never got to the “the lack of evidence doesn’t count, believe on faith” phase. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/72 "2008-12-08T21:05:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe the problem is not his unwillingness to follow the evidence but rather your lack of evidence worth following. Maybe your temporal lobe sensitivity is extremely low. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/73 "2008-12-08T21:35:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Maybe your temporal lobe sensitivity is extremely low. What does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/74 "2008-12-08T21:45:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? [Ask Richard Dawkins](http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbraintrans.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/75 "2008-12-08T21:52:41Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > [Ask Richard Dawkins](http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbraintrans.shtml). I understand you’re a person of faith but is there any reason to be this snide and insulting to other posters? You’re not being attacked. I would also appreciate it if you could take the time to respond to my questions in post 68. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/76 "2008-12-08T22:06:44Z")
Actually I have read other material that suggests a person’s brain make-up is responsible for their susceptability to religion. I hadn’t seen the Dawkins thing until now, but it could certainly account for the fervor with which some people adhere to their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/77 "2008-12-09T14:08:00Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Actually I have read other material that suggests a person’s brain make-up is responsible for their susceptability to religion. I hadn’t seen the Dawkins thing until now, but it could certainly account for the fervor with which some people adhere to their beliefs. It’s interesting isn’t it. I’m going to do a slight hijack here, since it looks like no-one’s posting anymore… To me, as an atheist, religion is never _rational_. But IMO it’s usually _sane_ – I understand at least why people follow religions. But a certain percentage, just like with any group in society I suppose, seem to be mentally ill. In religion, it tends to be the fundamentalists, the creationists. And they are often the most vocal group. I describe them as mentally ill because they seem to have awesome powers of self-delusion. For example: Answers in Genesis has a doctor of Astrophysics among their ranks. Some of his essays trying to explain away things like the successful predictions of the big bang…it’s painful reading. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/78 "2008-12-09T14:13:31Z")
I am certain that God exists, it’s just that some of you fuckwits refuse to recognize me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/79 "2008-12-09T17:59:44Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > I understand you’re a person of faith but is there any reason to be this snide and insulting to other posters? You’re not being attacked. I would also appreciate it if you could take the time to respond to my questions in post 68. Based on articles in Skeptical Inquirer about characteristics of the fantasy prone personality, I am very retarded in that regard. From all evidence many of my ancestors rank low also. I hardly consider a statement that I am not fantasy prone, but rather like Dawkins, to be an insult. In fact I consider it rather a compliment. And I find it rather more likely that this characteristic either evolved or appeared accidentally and was somewhat successful (priests have always done well) rather than that God set my brain up to be deaf to him. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750/80 "2008-12-09T19:00:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Based on articles in Skeptical Inquirer about characteristics of the fantasy prone personality, I am very retarded in that regard. From all evidence many of my ancestors rank low also. > > I hardly consider a statement that I am not fantasy prone, but rather like Dawkins, to be an insult. In fact I consider it rather a compliment. And I find it rather more likely that this characteristic either evolved or appeared accidentally and was somewhat successful (priests have always done well) rather than that God set my brain up to be deaf to him. I was reading it the same way you did (as a compliment), though I suppose a person who has this type of brain function would consider it insult, and I took **Liberal’s** intent to be just that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-doubt-the-existence-of-ghosts-god-supernatural-things-will-ever-be-factually-proved/475750.md?page=5)