# I fear I'm about to lose my country **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 22, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926 "2023-10-22T16:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/201 "2023-11-20T01:35:42Z")
Oh hell, @Frodo , that sucks. I’m sorry the asshole won. Good luck Argentina. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/202 "2023-11-20T01:36:43Z")
Chatham House perspective: [The rise of Javier Milei has changed Argentina forever](https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/the-world-today/2023-10/rise-javier-milei-has-changed-argentina-forever) > [@](#): > > A Milei presidency would embody the most outsider of the outsiders, since he lacks a power base similar to Brazil’s Armed Forces and the Evangelical sector that supported Bolsonaro, or the Republican party Trump co-opted in the US. He would have a minority in Congress, almost zero political pull among the governors in Argentina’s federal system and no support within the judiciary or the media. > > His proposed ‘system of government’ and decision-making mechanism remain a mystery, as he has never served a day in public office except for, recently, his seat in Congress. > > Does Milei even know the state he wishes to destroy? Can he manage it? How long can this kind of political experiment stay in power? The underlying question here is whether this weakness will make Milei more prone to exploring some ‘non-liberal’ mechanisms to gain political power. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/203 "2023-11-20T02:55:43Z")
Said another way, as to governing power he proposes nothing but personal criminality. Here’s hoping the SOB fails spectacularly or suffers an untimely stroke. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/204 "2023-11-20T02:57:03Z")
The key to those Chatham House questions may lie in how much of the power to do the things he proposed is actually in the hands of the President to exert unilaterally, what tools he would have to make it happen, and to what extent the political and social structure would follow his lead. One of the things that enabled Trump in the USA was that a lot of the norms of “what is or is not done, and the right and wrong way to do it” were really matters not of enforceable law but of an evolving “gentlemen’s understanding” among the governing class and there was no mechanism to force him to abide by them. At the same time, though, one of the things that _held him back_ especially at the end was that a large part of the national political, legal and security apparatus is **not** run at his whim and there were people there, even among his own political allies, willing and able to say “what you are asking of us, we are not allowed to grant, Sir.” One of the things that is a justifiable worry is that it would be too much of a lucky coincidence to have Milei **also** have no idea of how to get what he wants so he’d spend 4 years mostly flailing about chaotically while most of the state runs on autopilot… … Still, if there is this going on– > [@Frodo](#): > > many of Milei’s voters said things like “he’s not going to be able to implement the worst of those measures, the left and the peronists will march and strike and fight and stop him” – people counting on that “Milei can’t go too far because then The Streets will rise and he will be unable to go on” – basically that if he tries anything funny y’all will go 2001 on him – **that** sounds like a **very** risky bet (how do you know he’ll react like other in the past, or back down at all?), and basically a foisting off of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/205 "2023-11-20T08:39:06Z")
Woke up to the news this morning, I am so sorry! What a horrible thing to happen! Don’t know what to say, I don’t understand, how can people wish such an outcome and vote for such a person? What do they think they are doing? Was there much celebration or protests on the streets? What do you think will happen next? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/206 "2023-11-20T12:11:20Z")
Well,you see, in my experience when the left is in power the separation of powers works perfectly, laws have a hard time passing thru the Senate, and if they do they are checked and rechecked and re-rechecked by the judiciary to the point that a law may pass, survive lots of appeals to many courts and be so delayed that by the time it’s finally confirmed a right-wing government is in power and the law is ignored or repealed. Now, when the right is in power we are suddenly “a very presidentialist country”, the president program gets enabled even if theoretically they don’t have a majority in congress, representatives suddenly change their minds and then suddenly get vastly richer for some, I’m sure completely unrelated, reason. Same for the judiciary who changes from a snarling lion into a soft pliable kitten. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/207 "2023-11-20T12:19:53Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > – people counting on that “Milei can’t go too far because then The Streets will rise and he will be unable to go on” – basically that if he tries anything funny y’all will go 2001 on him – **that** sounds like a **very** risky bet (how do you know he’ll react like other in the past, or back down at all?), and basically a foisting off of responsibility. Exactly. In the first place I don’t know if we have the energy to protest like that anymore, many of those who bled and fought in those days are saying thank you very much but I’m going to sit this one out, enjoy what you voted for. They may or may not get over their completely understandable reaction, or may be some others that didn’t fought at that time (me included) are going to take up the fight and may be that could be enough. BUT, as you say we don’t know they are going to react like the weak De La Rua government at that time (namely killing 30 protesters more or less, but ultimately fleeing in disgrace). Milei’s VP has profound ties to the dictators of the 70’s, they probably plan on taking all those measures and then answering any popular discontent unleashing the police and (god forbid) the army. Dark years are ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/208 "2023-11-20T12:30:06Z")
I think you can divide Milei’s voters into the following categories 1. Pelotudos (“Idiots” is a possible translation), they don’t know or care who Milei is or what he’s proposing to do, they just voted against the party in power because the economy is bad. 2. Ultra Gorilas (Meaning extreme antiperonists), they prefer Stalin, Hitler, Morgoth or Voldemort before any kind of peronist, even extremely moderate ones like Massa. 3. Liberotarians (a portmanteau between “Libertarian” and “Otario” (stupid), Genuine libertarians, who think this kind of thing could ever work (So more informed pelotudos…) 4. Voto bronca (“The wrath vote”), people who are so furious with everything in general they just vote against the party in power, not caring about the consequences because “things cannot be worse than this” (they are about to be rudely awaken to the fact that yes, they very much can be worse) That said, there is (always) a lot of corruption in government, all those 4 categories are probably swelled by those who want to “throw the bums out”, to which I completely sympathize, but , as we are soon going to see, Milei is not going to throw any bum out, he’s just going to bring his own. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/209 "2023-11-20T13:58:24Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > In a cosy corner of Bag End, a pretty hobbit lady sits perched on the edge of comfortable squishy sofa, enormous headphones covering her ears. Off to the side, nervously hopping from one leg to the other, is Frodo Baggins. The large TV screen shows an angry-looking man waving a chainsaw. At the sight of him, the hobbit lady furiously shakes her fist at the screen. “What? What did he say?” asks Frodo with an anguished look. The hobbit lady turns towards Frodo, moving one side of the headphones off her ear as she opens her mouth to respond. “No! Don’t!” Frodo groans, “I can’t bear it.” He starts pacing up and down Bag End, muttering and gesticulating in agitation. I fed this into Bing’s AI generator and got this: [![](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG.0zlm0UccrP6cMzBaVQQ1?dpr=2.6&pid=ImgDetMain) ](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG.0zlm0UccrP6cMzBaVQQ1?dpr=2.6&pid=ImgDetMain) Maybe that can distract you from the asshole in power for a few seconds and give you a chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/210 "2023-11-20T14:19:01Z")
Woke up to this news today. Crap! Mierda! Or whatever you say. I know it’s a shock right now, and we in the US can empathize, but know that we also survived (albeit, painfully at times) 4 years of Trump. It may suck at times, but I hope Argentina comes thru this okay. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/211 "2023-11-20T14:21:49Z")
I appreciate the thought 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/212 "2023-11-20T14:23:02Z")
I would say it’s waayyy too early to pronounce that the US has survived Trump… ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/213 "2023-11-20T14:24:16Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Well,you see, in my experience when the left is in power the separation of powers works perfectly, laws have a hard time passing thru the Senate, and if they do they are checked and rechecked and re-rechecked by the judiciary to the point that a law may pass, survive lots of appeals to many courts and be so delayed that by the time it’s finally confirmed a right-wing government is in power and the law is ignored or repealed. > > Now, when the right is in power we are suddenly “a very presidentialist country”, the president program gets enabled even if theoretically they don’t have a majority in congress, representatives suddenly change their minds and then suddenly get vastly richer for some, I’m sure completely unrelated, reason. > Same for the judiciary who changes from a snarling lion into a soft pliable kitten. The same thing happens here in the US. Our right wing calls it the “unitary executive” but it sounds like it’s the same thing that you all have, and for the same reasons. I hope everything ends up working out as well as possible for you and your country. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/214 "2023-11-20T14:25:13Z")
I fear the US institutional inertia was greater at that point that Argentina’s is now. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/215 "2023-11-20T14:28:37Z")
> Sounds like a charming young fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/216 "2023-11-20T14:30:35Z")
He just said he’s going to eliminate the frigging Department of Education, this is a complete disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/217 "2023-11-20T14:43:46Z")
At this low point I think our only hope is that their extremism is moderated by their incompetence, it was not enough to lose them the election but it may be to stop them from burning the country down. Here’s hoping they truly are the ‘runfla de pelotudos’ that they seem to be. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/218 "2023-11-20T19:02:21Z")
For the past 30 years or more, I’ve been planning a hunting trip to Argentina as a retirement gift to myself. That’s in 2 years and I’m already reconsidering. I wonder how much tourism Argentina will lose as a result of this election. Everything I’ve seen about this man makes me think that he’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/219 "2023-11-20T19:04:58Z")
So what happens if it becomes obvious that he’s gone right off the deep end? Like if he proclaims that he’s eliminating the number 8 in Argentina because he does not like it? Or if he orders all civil servants to wear uniforms made out of purple velour? Is there any mechanism in Argentina to get rid of a leader who is obviously psychologically damaged? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926/220 "2023-11-20T19:55:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So what happens if it becomes obvious that he’s gone right off the deep end? Impeachment with 2/3 vote of each legislative house: [English Translation of Argentine Constitution](http://www.biblioteca.jus.gov.ar/argentina-constitution.pdf) Frodo wrote of situations where “a right-wing government is in power and the law is ignored or repealed.” Could be, but it does not seem anything like a unanimous opinion that Milei can or will run such a government. I listened to a rather [sympathetic-to-Milei podcast](https://reason.com/video/2023/10/26/can-milei-still-win-in-argentina/)that said he will be constrained by impeachment worries from day one due to his party having done miserably in last month’s legislative elections. P.S. The podcast does suggest that Milei may try to exceed his authority, ordering changes that arguably require legislation. But the National Congress (two chamber legislature) then can pass legislation to reverse with a 2/3 vote, and the Argentine Supreme Court will back up the legislature because they do not like Milei. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-fear-im-about-to-lose-my-country/991926.md?page=12)