# I finally know who Keyser Soze is (spoilers for the Usual Suspects) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976 "2012-11-14T13:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/21 "2012-11-14T18:25:34Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > On the other hand, I don’t know how far he’s going to get. Keyser Soze is a legend, and as demonstrated in the film, half the people you talk about scoff at the mere mention of him. Even Kujan was disgusted with the thought at first. So when he comes out and says, “Verbal Kint lied about everything, he made it all up with stuff in my office, he was really Keyser Soze,” he’s going to have a tough sell, especially with almost no evidence. Where is the evidence? > > - One burned Hungarian man who places Verbal Kint at the scene (he was at the scene, of course) and names him Keyser Soze. > - Numerous legends about Keyser Soze. > - Verbal Kint’s story, which they have tape-recorded, which I don’t think is admissable evidence. But say they start following up on the leads from it. We have no idea how much of the story is true. But we can assume that every single _name_ is false - he took all of the names from around the office. So what are they going to follow up on? They have a nebulous story, with a fellow that disappears into mist, with no names and no leads to follow on except a vague story of Redfoot and the others. > All we have left is the eyewitness testimony of the few people who saw Verbal and the only person who put two and two together is Kujan…who has been desperate enough to get in there it could easily have been said he’d browbeaten Verbal into the confession. I wasn’t saying he would get _caught_, I’m saying that the whole point of the movie was for Keyser to kill the witness who could testify against him and link him to the Keyser Soze narcotics operation. But in doing so, he left another witness who saw him shoot a bunch of people. So even if the can’t link Verbal to the legendary Keyser Soze, they can certainly put him away for murdering people on the boat, even if he is protected from on high by the Prince of Darkness. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/22 "2012-11-14T18:30:54Z")
I knew going in that it was going to be Kevin Spacey’s character. It was just so obvious\*. - After my sister had blabbed “It blew my mind that Kevin Spacey wass Keyser Sose in that new movie”. Reminds me that I still owe her one for that. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/23 "2012-11-14T18:38:54Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > - Verbal Kint’s story, which they have tape-recorded, which I don’t think is admissable evidence. But say they start following up on the leads from it. We have no idea how much of the story is true. But we can assume that every single _name_ is false - he took all of the names from around the office. So what are they going to follow up on? They have a nebulous story, with a fellow that disappears into mist, with no names and no leads to follow on except a vague story of Redfoot and the others. That’s the part I always loved. The stuff they can check would lead to a dozen different dead ends. And even the Hungarian is suspect. All they know is that he’s horribly burned in the explosion (and I believe dies at the end) and that he claims he saw Keyser Soze “shooting many men.” But then he gives Verbal’s description. As far as everyone but Kujan is concerned, it was Verbal who did all the shooting. And the places they’d look for Verbal are not the places Keyser Soze would be. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/24 "2012-11-14T19:56:11Z")
I only saw the movie once (when it first came out). I remember arguing with my friends that Kobayashi was the real Keyser Soze. I’ve forgetten most of the details so I can’t really argue that any more. Was my argument valid? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/25 "2012-11-14T20:41:46Z")
Now Anaamika needs to watch _Citizen Kane_ so we can finally talk about Rosebud. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/26 "2012-11-14T20:49:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Now Anaamika needs to watch _Citizen Kane_ so we can finally talk about Rosebud. I did, a couple of years back! 🙂 But I knew what Rosebud was before I went in. **Juggernaut** , it might be possible BUT we clearly see that Verbal Kint got the name “Kobayashi” from the bottom of the mug Kujan was drinking coffee out of. So the name is totally a fiction. As to whether there really was a Kobayashi or not, we only have Verbal’s word for that, and we know his word isn’t exactly reliable. If there is a Kobayashi, it’s possible he may have been the real Keyser Soze, but the movie makes it pretty clear that whether he WAS or not, Verbal Kint is Keyser Soze now. Now whether Verbal has always been Keyser or is just pulling a Dread Pirate Roberts, that’s I suppose up to the watcher to determine. It’s difficult. I can buy that Verbal is smart enough to take it over and become Keyser. Is he the kind of man who has enough _will_ to murder his own wife and children? I didn’t get that sense from him…BUT he may have just pulled one over the eyes of the audience as well. After all through the whole movie we see him in the role of Verbal Kint. So we don’t really see his _will_. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/27 "2012-11-14T21:58:31Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > … **Juggernaut** , it might be possible BUT… I should’ve been clearer, but I was referring to the man that he named “Kobayashi”. He’s the one who picked up Verbal in the car after he left the police office. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/28 "2012-11-15T00:03:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The longer the movie goes on the more you know who it has to be. The surprise to me was where the names came from. It has been a long time since I saw it, but I don’t think we ever hear the name, or are given any reason to think there might be such a person as Keyser Soze, until Verbal’s long monologue towards the end. I agree that it is not hard to guess that Verbal himself is probably Soze well before the monologue is finished and the fax comes through. Maybe when you watch a second time you can spot other clues earlier on (at least, clues that Verbal is a more significant character than he superficially appears to be), but you are not going to see them unless you already know the Soze story. (For me, though, even though I saw the film in first run, it was spoiled a bit for me by reviews that made it clear that Kevin Spacey’s character was very important.) Also, I do think we are not supposed to be left _entirely_ sure either that Verbal himself really is Soze (that fax might be just another of Soze’s tricks, and Verbal might just be about to be murdered by the real Soze), or that Soze really is real rather than just a fantasy of Verbal’s. _Probably_ Verbal is Soze, but I think there is meant to be a good bit of room left for doubt (and if there wasn’t, it would not be nearly such a good movie). \_\_ Oh dear, I have a craving for liver now. It was a tradition in my family that I got to eat liver after a Kevin Spacey movie. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/29 "2012-11-15T00:18:11Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Now whether Verbal has always been Keyser or is just pulling a Dread Pirate Roberts, that’s I suppose up to the watcher to determine. It’s difficult. I can buy that Verbal is smart enough to take it over and become Keyser. Is he the kind of man who has enough _will_ to murder his own wife and children? I didn’t get that sense from him…BUT he may have just pulled one over the eyes of the audience as well. After all through the whole movie we see him in the role of Verbal Kint. So we don’t really see his _will_. Surely that murder is what _made_ Keyser Soze into Keyser Soze, what made him totally ruthless. Before that, Soze was just an ordinary, fairly small-time crook. It is not a role anybody could simply take on, no matter how clever they were. If there really is a Keyser Soze at all outside of Kint’s imagination (I think it is probable, but not certain, that he is real), he is one man, the man who murdered his family, and probably, but not certainly, he was posing as someone called Verbal Kint. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/30 "2012-11-15T00:27:20Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I knew going in that it was going to be Kevin Spacey’s character. It was just so obvious\*. > > - After my sister had blabbed “It blew my mind that Kevin Spacey wass Keyser Sose in that new movie”. Reminds me that I still owe her one for that. I saw an interview with Kevin Spacy after this came out. He said it was screened for the cast and afterward Gabriel Byrne was little confused. Until that moment, he was under the impression that HIS character was Keyser Soze. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/31 "2012-11-15T00:32:29Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It has been a long time since I saw it, but I don’t think we ever hear the name, or are given any reason to think there might be such a person as Keyser Soze, until Verbal’s long monologue towards the end. I agree that it is not hard to guess that Verbal himself is probably Soze well before the monologue is finished and the fax comes through. Maybe when you watch a second time you can spot other clues earlier on (at least, clues that Verbal is a more significant character than he superficially appears to be), but you are not going to see them unless you already know the Soze story. (For me, though, even though I saw the film in first run, it was spoiled a bit for me by reviews that made it clear that Kevin Spacey’s character was very important.) > > Also, I do think we are not supposed to be left _entirely_ sure either that Verbal himself really is Soze (that fax might be just another of Soze’s tricks, and Verbal might just be about to be murdered by the real Soze), or that Soze really is real rather than just a fantasy of Verbal’s. _Probably_ Verbal is Soze, but I think there is meant to be a good bit of room left for doubt (and if there wasn’t, it would not be nearly such a good movie). I’m not sure where Soze is first referred to in the film. But I could clearly tell Verbal was there for a reason other than to be the hapless witness. I definitely got the feeling that Verbal plays a bigger part than he let’s on. Each step along the way it becomes apparent the climax doesn’t really exist and you won’t ever see Keyser Soze whether you know him by name or not. No new character could have satisfied the build up. That’s why I became more and more sure that Verbal was the actual culprit. ETA: And of course it was a lucky guess on my part. Agreed on the second part. Soze is more legend than reality. He could be one person, many, or none. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/32 "2012-11-15T07:32:29Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I only saw the movie once (when it first came out). I remember arguing with my friends that Kobayashi was the real Keyser Soze. I’ve forgetten most of the details so I can’t really argue that any more. Was my argument valid? Unlikely, since we saw the real “Kobayashi,” who is acting as a lackey for Verbal/Keyser, in one of the movie’s final scenes. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/33 "2012-11-15T13:16:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not sure where Soze is first referred to in the film. But I could clearly tell Verbal was there for a reason other than to be the hapless witness. I definitely got the feeling that Verbal plays a bigger part than he let’s on. Each step along the way it becomes apparent the climax doesn’t really exist and you won’t ever see Keyser Soze whether you know him by name or not. No new character could have satisfied the build up. That’s why I became more and more sure that Verbal was the actual culprit. ETA: And of course it was a lucky guess on my part. > > Agreed on the second part. Soze is more legend than reality. He could be one person, many, or none. The Hungarian in the hospital is the first one to say “Keyser Soze”. He’s ranting on in Hungarian, (there are translations on various websites but I have no idea how accurate they are), then starts shouting “Keyser Soze! Keyser Soze!” The FBI agent immediately latches onto this, and calls the guy at Justice who’s been tracking Soze. He also briefs Kujan, who walks into the office and asks Verbal “Who is Keyser Soze?” to which Verbal replies “Aw, fuck!” and then tells the Soze origin story, and has to work Soze into the bullshit story he’s been telling Kujan, and lead him to believe that Keating was Soze. That’s why I say Verbal/Keyser ultimately failed in his mission, in 2 ways. If the Hungarian hadn’t survived, the name Keyser Soze would never have come up at all, and there wouldn’t still be a witness to finger him as the shooter. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/34 "2012-11-15T15:17:41Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > That’s why I say Verbal/Keyser ultimately failed in his mission, in 2 ways. If the Hungarian hadn’t survived, the name Keyser Soze would never have come up at all, and there wouldn’t still be a witness to finger him as the shooter. Well that’s a possible interpretation. And you do get some sense of a close call for Verbal/Keyser at the end. But you also get the sense Verbal confidently made his way through the corn maze anyway. I rarely like movies that don’t wrap things up tightly, but this one is well done and leaves these questions open without dissatisfaction for me. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/35 "2012-11-15T15:21:51Z")
Maybe “failed” is too strong a word. Certainly this story will add to the Keyser Soze legend, and he’s still on the loose. But if the whole plot was to eliminate a witness who could finger Verbal/Keyser and testify against him, he’s still got the Hungarian to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/36 "2012-11-15T15:26:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > The Hungarian in the hospital is the first one to say “Keyser Soze”. That’s as may be, but doesn’t Gabriel Byrne introduce himself by pretty much saying it in the opening exchange? _“How ya doin’, Keaton?”_ _“I can’t feel my legs . . . Keyser.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/37 "2012-11-15T16:25:46Z")
I had heard a similar thing about Gabriel Byrne, but he figured it out not at the first screening, but while filming - probably when he was finally shooting that scene. I believe up till that point he thought he was Keyser until he got his script that day. I also read he was pretty upset, but that could have been internet rumors. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/38 "2012-11-15T16:30:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That’s as may be, but doesn’t Gabriel Byrne introduce himself by pretty much saying it in the opening exchange? > > _“How ya doin’, Keaton?”_ > _“I can’t feel my legs . . . Keyser.”_ Did those lines happen at the beginning, or at the end? I can’t remember. Time to rewatch I guess. “I had a finger up my ass tonight.” “Is it Friday already?” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/39 "2012-11-15T16:42:31Z")
I think the saddest part of the story was Keaton, who decides to go straight and behave himself. Sure, he needed to pay for his crimes of the past, but I’m not sure that death was the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976/40 "2012-11-15T16:47:15Z")
How about poor Edie? Puts her trust in Keaton going straight, winds up with 2 bullets in her head in a motel room in Pennsylvania. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-know-who-keyser-soze-is-spoilers-for-the-usual-suspects/640976.md?page=3)