# I finally told my oldest daughter I'm an atheist. Now she's upset and crying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 26, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254 "2011-05-26T03:59:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/141 "2011-05-27T12:51:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is nothing supernatural in any of that. You basically don’t know what you’re talking about, dude. You should probably give it a rest. Do you think I don’t know what I’ve been practicing for the last 15 years? Do you think I don’t know anything about what I majored in? I don’t know what you know. My previous interactions with you have shown someone who is willing to state authoritatively that a claim is true without providing much in the way of a cite. Even here, you don’t say why my claim is wrong, just that I don’t know what I’m talking about. But since I provided a link to a description of Theravada Buddhism and how central the belief in rebirth was, and you have provided no links at all, I’m not remotely convinced. > [@](#): > > You don’t have to believe in reincarnation to be a Buddhist, ok? Buddha himself said it was a waste of time to even worry about it. Theravada Buddhists don’t believe in reincarnation, but rebirth. I assume(d) that someone with your claimed expertise would know the difference. If you’re simply saying that your particular practice, or what you take from the Buddhist teachings, doesn’t require belief in the supernatural, then of course I have no argument – only you know what those things might be, and only you are the authority on the subject. But when you speak of Buddhism in general, and Theravada Buddhism in particular, then you better bring some cites. Because simply announcing that you know this, and every reader should believe you instead of cited resources, isn’t going to fly. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/142 "2011-05-27T12:57:35Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > I’ve also explained to them to never make fun of someone’s religion or faith, no matter how ridiculous it seems Sure about that? Because seventy five million years ago, there was an evil galactic ruler named Xenu… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/143 "2011-05-27T12:57:45Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The word is “require”. Being Buddhist doesn’t “require” supernatural beliefs. That doesn’t exclude that it may have these beliefs, just that it doesn’t require them. I’m not sure sure what to make of this. We could claim that Christianity doesn’t require supernatural beliefs, then. Is that the meaning of “require” we’re going with? To be a Theravada Buddhist requires that you accept the truth of rebirth. The Four Noble Truths require it – specifically the Fourth Noble Truth, which says that the way to end suffering and rebirth is by practice of the Eightfold Path. It’s hard to imagine what could be a more central “truth” to the practice. Of course, you could say that practicing the Eightfold Path is a great way to live, even without rebirth… just as you could say that following Christ’s teachings is a great way to live, even if He wasn’t divine and there is no Heaven. But I don’t think too many people would agree with the formulation that Christianity does not require belief in the supernatural, even though we’d all agree that an individual can take some teachings of Christ he finds agreeable without believing in the supernatural. And if Christianity does, then Theravada Buddhism does. But if you want to parse “require” in such a way that we can say Christianty does not require a belief in the supernatural, then I agree Theravada Buddhism does not either. Is that what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/144 "2011-05-27T13:02:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He said Buddhism required no supernatural beliefs It doesn’t. > [@](#): > > 1. How is that not supernatural? What’s supernatural about it? The Buddha state is simply a naturally achieved state of cognitive awareness. It isn’t magic. It isn’t supernatural. It’s just a state of mind. > [@](#): > > 1. How you figure we’re talking about what Diogenes takes from it, as opposed to what the practice actually is? There is no “THE practice” when it comes to Buddhism. At its most elemental (and Zen is Buddhism at its most elemental), its just a cognitive discipline. Buddhism _allows_ for superatural beliefs, and even god worship (you can even be a Christian), it just doesn’t _require_ any of it. The closest thing Buddhism has to a creed is the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, none of which require any supernatural beliefs. Rebirth and reincarnation are the same thing, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/145 "2011-05-27T13:03:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To be a Theravada Buddhist requires that you accept the truth of rebirth. No it doesn’t. Zen is Mahayana anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/146 "2011-05-27T13:05:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Rebirth and reincarnation are the same thing, by the way. No, they are not. [Cite.](http://www.maithri.com/fromindexpage.htm) > [@](#): > > The Buddha taught about rebirth in Theravada Buddhism but not in the reincarnation or the transmigration of permanent souls. The life after death is only a continuation of the present process of existence. The Buddha realized that our existence does not begin with this human life nor end with this life in some kind of eternal heaven or hell afterwards, out he beheld that we have been existing since beginningless time in countless numbers of various existences according to our accumulated Karma and will continue to do so until the whole process is understood and gradually brought to a standstill. Theravada Buddhism is a gradual path of mental evolution, where man transcends human weaknesses and attains perfection of mind and finally solves the problem of existence, attains Nirvana. Let me gues. You have no cite, but are going to insist you’re correct anyway? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/147 "2011-05-27T13:06:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not sure sure what to make of this. > > We could claim that Christianity doesn’t require supernatural beliefs, then. Is that the meaning of “require” we’re going with? > > To be a Theravada Buddhist requires that you accept the truth of rebirth. The Four Noble Truths require it – specifically the Fourth Noble Truth, which says that the way to end suffering and rebirth is by practice of the Eightfold Path. It’s hard to imagine what could be a more central “truth” to the practice. > > Of course, you could say that practicing the Eightfold Path is a great way to live, even without rebirth… just as you could say that following Christ’s teachings is a great way to live, even if He wasn’t divine and there is no Heaven. But I don’t think too many people would agree with the formulation that Christianity does not require belief in the supernatural, even though we’d all agree that an individual can take some teachings of Christ he finds agreeable without believing in the supernatural. > > And if Christianity does, then Theravada Buddhism does. > > But if you want to parse “require” in such a way that we can say Christianty does not require a belief in the supernatural, then I agree Theravada Buddhism does not either. > > Is that what you mean? My point was that the would “require” does not exclude the possibility of having these beliefs, but that one does not have to have them to identify as Buddhist. Simply put, are there denominations of Buddhism that do not require a belief in the supernatural? If so, then to be a Buddhist does not require it. You simply choose a denomination that matches your beliefs. For example, Reconstructionist Judaism does not require a statement of faith when converting, while Conservative/Orthodox do. So, to be Jewish doesn’t require belief in supernatural events, just choose to follow Reconstructionist Judaism. Now forgive my ignorance, but is the type of Buddhism you are referring to the only type of Buddhism? If not, then perhaps you are overlooking the intended way the word require is being used. I don’t mean to speak for Dio, he can argue his point just fine, but had he said Buddhism never requires belief in the supernatural you may have point. But he didn’t. It seems his statement is factually accurate. I do not want to hijack Dio’s thread, so I probably shouldn’t keep this going- this could be an interesting thread on it’s own. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/148 "2011-05-27T13:07:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it doesn’t. How come I’m the only one providing any cites here? I gave you a cite that says it does. The only thing supporting you is your post. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/149 "2011-05-27T13:12:51Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > My point was that the would “require” does not exclude the possibility of having these beliefs, but that one does not have to have them to identify as Buddhist. > > Simply put, are there denominations of Buddhism that do not require a belief in the supernatural? If so, then to be a Buddhist does not require it. You simply choose a denomination that matches your beliefs. For example, Reconstructionist Judaism does not require a statement of faith when converting, while Conservative/Orthodox do. So, to be Jewish doesn’t require belief in supernatural events, just choose to follow Reconstructionist Judaism. Now forgive my ignorance, but is the type of Buddhism you are referring to the only type of Buddhism? If not, then perhaps you are overlooking the intended way the word require is being used. > > I don’t mean to speak for Dio, he can argue his point just fine, but had he said Buddhism never requires belief in the supernatural you may have point. But he didn’t. It seems his statement is factually accurate. > > I do not want to hijack Dio’s thread, so I probably shouldn’t keep this going- this could be an interesting thread on it’s own. Did you read the actual quotes I provided? I’m guessing no. So one more time: > [@Bricker](#): > > Theravada Buddhism does. Mahayana Buddhism does, at least to the extent that they claim all sentient beings have Buddhadhatu. And as I understood it, Zen derives from the Mahayana school. > > Does Zen Buddhism still have a goal of buddhatta? (That’s the Pali word applied in Theravada Buddhism for attaining a complete buddha nature). If so, I’d argue that alone is a supernatural belief, since it implies the end of rebirth. Did you read that? Did you see where right from the beginning I anticipated the issue of different Buddhist practices, and so I specified THERAVADA BUDDHISM? I even asked what Zen Buddhism requires. I was fully prepared to hear that Zen Buddhism did not require _buddhatta_ or something similar, or if it did, that the Buddha nature did not imply a cessation of rebirth. But (so far) that has not been the answer. Now my question to you, **Ivory** , is: how could you post about denominations? Did you not read my post? Did you not understand that I was discussing a very specific demonination? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/150 "2011-05-27T13:16:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, they are not. Yes they are. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/151 "2011-05-27T13:18:01Z")
Please take the Buddhism discussion to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/152 "2011-05-27T13:19:06Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/153 "2011-05-27T13:19:18Z")
Yes, I did read it but I was confused and thought I must have misunderstood what I read as you were persisting on this point long after Dio’s point was well clarified. I you agree that his original statement is factually correct, then I have nothing more to contribute to this hijack and remain confused why the significance of your point was. ETA: Mod comment wasn’t there before. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/154 "2011-05-27T13:48:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It > Rebirth and reincarnation are the same thing, by the way. > [@Bricker](#): > > No, they are not. [Cite.](http://www.maithri.com/fromindexpage.htm) > > > [@](#): > > > > The Buddha taught about rebirth in Theravada Buddhism but not in the reincarnation or the transmigration of permanent souls. The life after death is only a continuation of the present process of existence. The Buddha realized that our existence does not begin with this human life nor end with this life in some kind of eternal heaven or hell afterwards, out he beheld that we have been existing since beginningless time in countless numbers of various existences according to our accumulated Karma and will continue to do so until the whole process is understood and gradually brought to a standstill. Theravada Buddhism is a gradual path of mental evolution, where man transcends human weaknesses and attains perfection of mind and finally solves the problem of existence, attains Nirvana. > > Let me gues. You have no cite, but are going to insist you’re correct anyway? And **Diogenes** ’ response, in full: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes they are. Hah! Hah! Hah! ETA: Mod comment now seen. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/155 "2011-05-27T14:00:03Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > The other side of it: > > I’m 36. I have never, ever told my very-Catholic Mother that I don’t believe in God. Whenever I visit my Parents - or on the very odd occasion that they visit me here - I become a good Catholic boy. I go to Mass purely for my Mother’s sake as it is so important to her. Her religion is so important to her and I am pretty sure it would devastate her if I straight up told her. I am pretty sure she knows that I am not a regular church go-er but I doubt very much she thinks I simply don’t believe in God. I am certain she just thinks I have lapsed. We’re in a similar situation - my husband’s an atheist, I blow between atheist and agnostic. My family knows, and his father and sister know, but we’ll likely never tell his mother. It’ll just cause her pain and angst. More importantly, she might tell Mr. Snicks’s grandparents, and that’s something we \*really \*don’t want (and is likely the real reason we haven’t told her). They’re very religious and it would just destroy them. Since it’s easy to keep them from that pain, we just don’t mention it. Sure, it’s a lie of omission, but it’s kindly meant. Mr. Snicks has a complicated relationship with his mother. Sometimes when she’s pissed him off, he’ll mention that he’s going to tell her as soon as his grandparents kick off, just to be spiteful. It’s kind of funny. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/156 "2011-05-27T14:01:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please take the Buddhism discussion to another thread. [Done.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=610173) **Diogenes** and all other persons interested in whether, in Theravada Buddhism “rebirth” and “reincarnation” are the same thing or different things, and what schools of Buddhist thought may require a belief in the supernatural, are cordially invited to join the discussion in the thread link above. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/157 "2011-05-27T14:07:56Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > We’re in a similar situation - my husband’s an atheist, I blow between atheist and agnostic. And your husband approves? Who is the agnostic?? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/158 "2011-05-27T14:11:32Z")
My mother has never been entirely happy with my atheism (my theory is that she doesn’t want to admit to herself that she’s really an atheist at heart), but no matter how much I thought it would disappoint her, I would never protect her from _that_. She’s my mother – if she couldn’t handle knowing that about me, I’d think less of her as a mother. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/159 "2011-05-27T16:18:55Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > We’re in a similar situation - my husband’s an atheist, I blow between atheist and agnostic. My family knows, and his father and sister know, but we’ll likely never tell his mother. It’ll just cause her pain and angst. More importantly, she might tell Mr. Snicks’s grandparents, and that’s something we \*really \*don’t want (and is likely the real reason we haven’t told her). They’re very religious and it would just destroy them. Since it’s easy to keep them from that pain, we just don’t mention it. Sure, it’s a lie of omission, but it’s kindly meant. > > Mr. Snicks has a complicated relationship with his mother. Sometimes when she’s pissed him off, he’ll mention that he’s going to tell her as soon as his grandparents kick off, just to be spiteful. It’s kind of funny. And here is a wonderful example of how religion poisons, if not everything, than at least enough to make open and honest discussion between adults awkward, if not downright painful. I’m not having a go at you, your family or your decisions but I think it is just a damn shame that anyone has to deal with that. And what does it say about the religion being followed? it is so intolerant that to not be a follower means one is…what? evil? dammed? For crying out loud surely an adult is able to judge the worth of a person without reference to religious dogma aren’t they? Blows my mind it does. I’ve managed to live my full life without ever knowing or caring whether my parents or siblings actually believe in god or not. It just never comes up thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254/160 "2011-05-27T17:10:50Z")
Religion isn’t the poison, its not respecting differences. Families have the same issues on politics, on sexuality, on being vegetarian, on all sorts of issues. I have a friend who had a similar household crisis. He and his wife agreed that their household was vegetarian, but my friend remained a omnivore when not with the family. The kids had never seen him eat meat, and assumed that he was a vegetarian. When they kids discovered (sometime in elementary school) that he wasn’t a vegetarian, there was a certain amount of betrayal felt (maybe driven by years of having given up bacon ;)). The kids were then allowed to make their own choices - one chose to start eating meat, one is still a vegetarian. But several years later, the meat eater will tell you she was “cheated” out of years of meat. We chose a different path than Dio and his wife (deist married to atheist) - we went the UU route - and the UU route with blunt honesty. Dad is an atheist, we have never pretended anything different. But, the chances of raising religious children in a household where atheism is an option - I haven’t seen too many kids raised that way embrace the idea of God (I teach UU Sunday school, this is a COMMON UU scenario, and its usually “Mom is some form of fairly liberal Christian or cafeteria Catholic, Dad is a non-believer” - though there is one case in our congregation where Dad is Muslim and Mom is the non-believer, so it happens in multiple flavors). So if a positive belief in God is important to one spouse, the route Dio took is risky (the risk being the one he ran into) but the most likely one to result in a positive belief in God for the kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-finally-told-my-oldest-daughter-im-an-atheist-now-shes-upset-and-crying/583254.md?page=9)