# I find it ironic (abortion and freedom) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532 "2003-07-19T02:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/101 "2003-07-22T12:58:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\* > This is completely inaccurate. The “pro-life” side is against choice WRT abortion. Therefore, implying that they are opposed to choice does do justice to their beliefs. > \*\* > [@](#): > > _Same quote, parodied by Shodan_ > \*\* > This is completely inaccurate. The “pro-choice” side is against life WRT abortion. Therefore, implying that they are opposed to life does do justice to their beliefs. > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\* > Furthermore, I don’t think that most “pro-life” people would see anything ignoble about restricting choice. > \*\* And I, in turn, see a lot of “pro-choice” people who are in favor of euthanasia. I have even heard arguments in favor of infanticide. Therefore, by your standards, would you say it is accurate to describe your side as being “anti-life”? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\* > If someone said “The Ryan is opposed to allowing people to choose to commit murder”, I wouldn’t consider that “demonizing”. I would consider that to be a quite accurate description of my position on the issue. > \*\* OK - how about putting it as “The Ryan is in favor of allowing people to choose to commit murder”? Is that an accurate description of your stance on abortion? This all strikes me as a rather desperate attempt to co-opt the debate. “Anti-choice” on the one side, “baby murderer” on the other. **Diogenes** - three of the first four of your definitions can be applied to a fetus. You stated: > [@](#): > > If you want to assert that something is a person then you have the burden to prove it. Be so kind as to provide proof of your assertions that a pregnant teenager is a person, and a fetus is not. Regards, Shodan Proof, not assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/102 "2003-07-22T13:50:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Shodan_ > **Diogenes** - three of the first four of your definitions can be applied to a fetus.\*\* No they can’t. A fetus is not a “human being” any more than a chicken egg is a chicken. It’s not “an individual of specifed character,” and it’s not a “composite of characteristics that make up a personality.” You stated: Be so kind as to provide proof of your assertions that a pregnant teenager is a person, and a fetus is not. Regards, Shodan Proof, not assertions. \*\* [/QUOTE] The assertion is that a fetus _is_ a person. I don’t have to prove it _isn’t_ a person any more than I have to prove a rock is not a person. The personhood of a fetus is _your_ assertion. Prove it. Since it does not fit any of the definitions in the dictionary you have your work cut out for you. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/103 "2003-07-22T16:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > And I, in turn, see a lot of “pro-choice” people who are in favor of euthanasia. I have even heard arguments in favor of infanticide. Therefore, by your standards, would you say it is accurate to describe your side as being “anti-life”? You’re going to have to provide some cites as to how many people want to kill old/sick people or kill infants. It’s pretty outragous that you should use these baseless accusations to tar abortion rights supporters as “anti-life”. And besides, I support voluntary abortion because it helps keep the birth rate down, which I regard as essential in protecting _all_ life on this planet. Most like is not human, y’know. Favoring a healthy eco-system is the ulitmate in “pro-life”. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/104 "2003-07-22T16:29:15Z")
…most _life_ is not human… ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/105 "2003-07-22T16:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cat Fight \* > \*\*Hey **Svt4him** , I was shocked, just shocked, when I found out who might have been aborted. > > 1. You are a teenage prostitute who has gotten knocked up. Is it a blessing in disguise? > > 2. Your husband is an abusive alcoholic and now you’re pregnant. Will having a baby bring out his nurturing side? > > 3. You are married to someone who is basically your uncle, and have already given birth to two boys and a girl. All three have died. Is god trying to tell you something, or should you give it one more try? > > Well, the first situation produced Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and Henry Lee Lucas (take your pick). Number two created upstanding gents like John Wayne Gacy and Leonard Lake. Go for the gold with humber three, and you’ve given birth to Hitler. Yeah, thanks a lot. > > Of course, I think this is a silly little game and am sure plenty of people are born to abusive parents, hookers, etc. and grow up to be wonderful people who do not start cults or kill millions, but you get my point (I hope). \*\* You are correct. Obviously then killing a baby because of bad circumstances is just wrong, as it has more to do with the parenting then the situation. Good thing aboption is always an option then. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/106 "2003-07-22T18:49:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*No they can’t. > > A fetus is not a “human being” any more than a chicken egg is a chicken. It’s not “an individual of specifed character,” and it’s not a “composite of characteristics that make up a personality.” > > You stated: > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Be so kind as to provide proof of your assertions that a pregnant teenager is a person, and a fetus is not. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > > > Proof, not assertions. \*\* > > The assertion is that a fetus _is_ a person. I don’t have to prove it _isn’t_ a person any more than I have to prove a rock is not a person. The personhood of a fetus is _your_ assertion. Prove it. Since it does not fit any of the definitions in the dictionary you have your work cut out for you. \*\* Actually, what I asked for was your proof that a teenager is a person. Then we can examine your principles, and see if they apply to the fetus. You stated rather clearly that yours was the burden of proof. Let’s see your proof. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/107 "2003-07-22T19:04:13Z")
Hi, **sqweels** - [Peter Singer](http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Exhibit/2412/eugenics/singer.html) is the pro-choicer who advocates infanticide who springs first to mind. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/108 "2003-07-22T19:22:04Z")
Oh, and sorry, but some of those storeis don’t add up to what I’ve found. 1. Charles Manson in Nuel Emmons’ book Manson in His Own Words describes the Maddox family: In 1933, at age fifteen, my mother ran away from home. Other writers have portrayed Mom as a teenage whore…In her search for acceptance she may have fallen in love too easily and too often, but a whore at that time? No!..In later years, because of hard knocks and tough times, she may have sold her body some 1. On November 24, 1946, Eleanor Louise Cowell gave birth to Theodore Robert Cowell in a home for\*\* unwed mothers\*\* in Burlington [http://tedbundy.150m.com/part1.html](http://tedbundy.150m.com/part1.html) 2. Henry Lee Lucas [http://www.carpenoctem.tv/killers/lucas.html](http://www.carpenoctem.tv/killers/lucas.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/109 "2003-07-22T19:27:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, what I asked for was your proof that a teenager is a person. Then we can examine your principles, and see if they apply to the fetus. She fits every definition. The fetus does not. Basically, she is a human being and a fetus is not. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/110 "2003-07-22T19:34:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Hi, **sqweels** - > > [Peter Singer](http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Exhibit/2412/eugenics/singer.html) is the pro-choicer who advocates infanticide who springs first to mind. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* In fact, Peter Singer advocates infanticide precisely _because_ he agrees with the pro-choicers who say that the unborn is not a person. He recognizes that there is nothing about passage through the birth canal which magically bestows personhood, and so he believes we would be justified in killing newborn infants. Peter Singer echoes the sentiment of the pro-choicers in this thread who acknowledge that birth is an _arbitrary_ dividing line. Because birth is an [arbitrary](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arbitrary) point at which to declare personhood, these same pro-choicers should have no fundamental problem with the killing of newborn babies. That is, if they want to have any consistency in their stance on abortion and personhood. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/111 "2003-07-22T19:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Hi, **sqweels** - > > [Peter Singer](http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Exhibit/2412/eugenics/singer.html) is the pro-choicer who advocates infanticide who springs first to mind. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* The cite is a little disingenuous. Singer (who is a radical extremist not remotely representative of the pro-choice position) advocates euthanasia for newborns with severe birth defects (babies that are suffering and are going to die anyway). He’s not calling for an open season on healthy infants nor is he saying that anything sould be mandated, only that parents should have the option. It’s an extreme view and it’s not my view. Should I post links to all the “pro-life” websites that advocate murdering doctors? ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/112 "2003-07-22T20:09:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > How would you respond in these situations? > > 1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion? My wife and I would offer to adopt the child. > [@](#): > > 1. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion? My wife and I would offer to adopt the child. > [@](#): > > 1. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion? My wife and I would offer to adopt the child. > [@](#): > > 1. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion? My wife and I would offer to adopt the child. > [@](#): > > In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. Well, not in my house he wouldn’t. We don’t allow no religion 'round here. My point (and I do have one) is: How many “pro-life” people have adopted children? For reference: I have 1 bio kid, 3 step kids and 2 adopted kids. Often the reason for abortion is the inability to deal with a child (have too many, can’t afford one, too young). If adoptions were more common/easy/acceptable there would be fewer abortions. I’m quite sure that everyone would be happier if abortion became a non-issue because there simply weren’t any (and the government could get it’s sticky fingers out of our lives). ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/113 "2003-07-22T20:14:22Z")
Dang it. “its sticky fingers”–not “it’s.” \ I type too fast (and maybe think too slow) when I get worked up. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/114 "2003-07-22T20:22:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*In fact, Peter Singer advocates infanticide precisely _because_ he agrees with the pro-choicers who say that the unborn is not a person. He recognizes that there is nothing about passage through the birth canal which magically bestows personhood, and so he believes we would be justified in killing newborn infants. \*\* But passage through the birth canal does “magically” bestow physical autonomy, thus largely (entirely?) negating the mother’s legal interest in terminating the pregnancy. Once birth has taken place…there is no pregnancy to terminate! A fetus is completely dependent on the mother, which creates a burden upon her, which she may have a legal interest in having relieved. A baby is completely dependent on _someone_ to feed it and keep it warm…but since it doesn’t have to be the mother, the burden _is_ relieved. > [@](#): > > [qb] > Peter Singer echoes the sentiment of the pro-choicers in this thread who acknowledge that birth is an _arbitrary_ dividing line. Because birth is an [arbitrary](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arbitrary) point at which to declare personhood, these same pro-choicers should have no fundamental problem with the killing of newborn babies. That is, if they want to have any consistency in their stance on abortion and personhood. \*\* It is “arbitrary” for some purposes, but it is also an absolute dividing line for other purposes. I don’t know who Pete Singer is, but he doesn’t speak for me or for any of the pro-choice people I respect. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/115 "2003-07-22T20:27:53Z")
There seems to be a lot of concern over definitions here. I’d like to suggest a different thrust of discussion, something like: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **A pregnant teenager can suffer. A zygote cannot.** And the pregnant teenager will suffer a LOT if she has an abortion. It’s a terrible thing to go through and many women have nightmares for weeks and years afterwards. How much of that is due to societal pressure is open for debate. If a teenager gives up her child for adoption, she’ll suffer, too. If a teenager keeps her kid and hates it because she can’t hang with her friends any more, and the kid hates its life and etc., then both the girl and the child will suffer. Let’s face it, it’s lousy to be pregnant and not want to be. What is the best choice for both mom and child? Do we want the government to make this decision–with blanket rules, fine dividing lines, government offices, forms to fill out, blah, blah, blah–or leave it up to each mom, who will have to live with the consequences? I’m opposed to violence and abortion is violent. By anyone’s definition, I think. I’m also opposed to the government telling people what to do. I’m highly in favor of birth control. For everyone. If having a child was a concious choice instead of “it just happened,” we’d be out of a lot of jams. I guess that makes me “pro-choice.” ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/116 "2003-07-22T20:41:06Z")
NoCoolUserName, I don’t know how strong that arguement is. I can name many, and I can also tell you how hard it was to wait, and how long they did have to wait. My friends adopted a boy from Russian, and my others adopted two children. Then there were my non-religious friends who adopted. So to say no one wants to adopt is not accurate, nor is it a reason to kill children. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/117 "2003-07-22T23:09:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > **…the sentiment of the pro-choicers in this thread who acknowledge that birth is an _arbitrary_ dividing line…** (IMO) _any_ point we choose is arbitrary, unless you define a person as “anything that could potentially devlop into an adult human”, in which case conception _would_ be a definitive discrete point of transition. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/118 "2003-07-22T23:17:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*Bob Cos > > This is completely inaccurate. The “pro-life” side is against choice WRT abortion. Therefore, implying that they are opposed to choice does do justice to their beliefs. Furthermore, I don’t think that most “pro-life” people would see anything ignoble about restricting choice. If one thinks that abortion is murder, then how is being accused of being opposed to choice “demonizing”? If someone said “The Ryan is opposed to allowing people to choose to commit murder”, I wouldn’t consider that “demonizing”. I would consider that to be a quite accurate description of my position on the issue. If someone ever starts a thread about whether we should allow this choice, I would see nothing wrong with my position on this issue being described as “anti-choice”. So I don’t see why “pro-life” people would have a problem being called “anti-choice”, since that is a quite accurate description of their position on this issue\*\* A completely idiotic position. This is pretty funny. Yes, your position is unassailable, so long as we accept your assertion that “pro-choice” can only, only, only have one possible meaning, and “pro-life” can only, only, only imply that those who are in opposition hold life in contempt. Both of these assertions are absurd on their faces, and you can keep repeating ad infinitum that it’s not so and your argument won’t take on an aura of truth. Pro-choice, the term by itself, is ambiguous and could imply that those who are in oppostion are generally against allowing people personal choices. It was not selected accidentally. It could, however, also truthfully be used by someone who simply wants it to mean they are for abortion rights–i.e., “pro-the right to choose abortion.” Words are like that. Pro-life, the term by itself, is ambiguous and could imply that those in opposition value life less. It was not selected accidentally. It could, however, also truthfully be used by someone who simply wants it to mean they are for protecting the right to life that they believe the unborn possess–i.e., it is short for “pro-protecting the life of the unborn.” Words are like that. You have yet to show why either of these statements are false. You are begging the question: “My designation is accurate because it’s true, while yours is innaccurate because it’s false.” It is to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/119 "2003-07-22T23:28:43Z")
People want to adopt healthy white neborns. They don’t want to adopt black crack babies or older kids. It’s irrelevant anyway. if a woman doesn’t want to carry a pregnancy then that’s the end of it. And who said anything about killing children? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532/120 "2003-07-23T03:52:04Z")
“Just put the baby up for adoption.” I love how people bring that up, like it’s the answer to everyone’s problems. Hey, I’m 15 and pregant, I don’t want to abort and I don’t want a kid, so I’ll just check off the “adoption” box. Hey kids at school, it’s okay- it’s being put up for adoption. Evil boss who won’t give me a bathroom break let alone maternity leave, everything’s fine, I’m not keeping the kid. And what’s with this morning sickness and back pain? Hel-lo, I chose to put the baby up for adoption. (for anyone here who may be looking to adopt and knows how painful and long the process is, this isn’t directed at you. As you probably know, the problem is more beaureaucratic, and there will never, ever be a shortage of children who need homes). Bah. Debates can go on for years, but at the end of the day, I find it terrifying that, should I wake up pregnant tomorrow, there are people out there who want to take control of my cooter (thanks for the word, Tina Fey). And I would not let them. Call me selfish (and the dozens of other women I have heard say these exact words), but having a child right now would ruin my life. I guarantee that I would end my pregnancy somehow, and whether that’s in a doctor’s office or a back room is up to the government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-find-it-ironic-abortion-and-freedom/189532.md?page=7)