# I flew this helicopter **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 4, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885 "2010-06-04T03:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/1 "2010-06-04T03:41:57Z")
Sorry for yet _another_ helicopter thread, but I’ve just come across [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00qICdaUX4&feature=fvw) and I wanted to share. I actually flew that sad bit of wreckage before it became a sad bit of wreckage. I’ve checked my log book, and I last flew it on 23 April, a bit over four months before it crashed. > [@](#): > > Accident occurred Saturday, August 06, 1994 in AGUA DULCE, CA > Probable Cause Approval Date: 2/24/1995 > Aircraft: ROBINSON R-22B, registration: N701SH > Injuries: 2 Minor. > THE PILOT WAS ATTEMPTING AN APPROACH TO LAND FROM THE WEST IN AN OPEN FIELD. THE PILOT TOLD SHERIFF’S DEPUTIES THAT AT 100 FEET HE FELT HE WAS SETTLING-WITH-POWER. HE ATTEMPTED TO RECOVER, BUT AT 10 FEET HE REALIZED HE DID NOT HAVE POWER AVAILABLE. THE HELICOPTER SETTLED TO THE GROUND AND ROLLED OVER. RESPONDING SHERIFF’S HELICOPTER PILOTS ESTIMATED THE WIND WAS FROM THE WEST BETWEEN 15 AND 20 KNOTS AND THE DENSITY ALTITUDE WAS ESTIMATED AT 6,100 FEET MSL. > > The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: > > the pilot’s poorly planned approach and improper remedial action. Factors relating to this accident were the high density altitude and prevailing tailwind. Three other helicopters I’ve flown have crashed. I showed up for a lesson one day and the instructor was late. Turns out he and a student were practicing ‘full-down’ autorotations and rolled it. One was sold to a buyer in Oregon, and the pilot had get-there-itis. He _had_ to fly it to its new owner, in spite of the worst Winter storms L.A. had seen in a long while. He was forced down into trees somewhere. (I heard he crashed a different helicopter a week later, in similar conditions.) The other one crashed when the pilot made a poor approach to a ridge he wanted to land on, and he couldn’t fly out of the downdraft. Anyway, this is the first time I’ve seen ol’ One-Sierra-Hotel after it crashed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/2 "2010-06-04T03:59:04Z")
Correction. N701SH can be seen in the video. We know it crashed. [N40009](http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X06028&key=1) was the one that hit the ridgeline. [N504RS](http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X14447&key=1) is the one my instructor crashed. But [N940SM](http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=940SM) is apparently alive and well and flying in Alaska. Looks like I was told some bad information on Sierra-Mike. And the OP should say ‘a bit over three months before it crashed’; not four months. . ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/3 "2010-06-04T06:14:17Z")
There’s a good chance that I was a passenger in [this airplane](http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?id=A20010091000). In college, I got letter from out campus radio station to get credentials for press day at the Paine Field airshow. Just once around the pattern, but it’s the only time I’ve been in an open-cockpit biplane. I’m not absolutely sure it’s the same one, but I may have pictures back at my mom’s place to confirm the tail number. And I think the text on that page is a bit out of date, the plane was hanging at the Udvar-Hazy Center shortly after it opened. At the Air Force museum in Dayton is a helicopter my dad flew in 'Nam, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he had some hours in their C-141 as well. I’ve been to that museum. I struck up a conversation with a guy standing by their F-106. Turned out he was a former crew chief on that airplane, and it had a rather [interesting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg) history. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/4 "2010-06-04T06:22:43Z")
did we not have a discussion on how safe helicopters were a while back?😉 Don’t got no problem landing a tricycle gear plane in 25 knot crosswinds. Or maybe someone’s going around sabotaging helicopters on the west coast. If there was only a connection… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/5 "2010-06-04T12:29:19Z")
Nothing to add - fascinating topic. I often try to explain to folks that interests breakdown along a spectrum of “Low Shlep” to “High Shlep”- are you into stuff that requires little/no effort or gear, like reading or day hiking, or something that requires a lot of gear and effort, like windsurfing or high-end stereo set-ups? Dude - that’s some high shlep you got there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/6 "2010-06-04T13:31:48Z")
what does “settling with power” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/7 "2010-06-04T13:56:29Z")
Twice I have flown a plane that crashed a week afterward. Both were fatalities. I now warn other pilots to either fly right away, or wait two weeks after I’m done with an aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/8 "2010-06-04T14:01:29Z")
Johnny, if I’d be an aircraft owner I’d be hesitant to let you get near it, you seem to have the kiss of death. :eek: > [@Bricker](#): > > what does “settling with power” mean? What happens is, if the helicopter descends straight down the rotor can get tangled, so to speak, in it’s own downwash, instead of pushing air down to keep the helicopter up, some of the downwash starts to circulate around the edge of the rotor disk, kind of like a donut shape. This causes a loss of lift that in a bad enough case it’s more than what you can compensate by using more power or increasing the collective. The end result is that the helicopter starts to lose altitude. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/9 "2010-06-04T15:47:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > did we not have a discussion on how safe helicopters were a while back?😉 Don’t got no problem landing a tricycle gear plane in 25 knot crosswinds. Aha! But all three crashes were non-fatal/zero or minor injuries. 😉 > [@Ale](#): > > Johnny, if I’d be an aircraft owner I’d be hesitant to let you get near it, you seem to have the kiss of death. :eek: Nah, must have been someone else who flew it. Anyway, I’m pretty sure the other Robbos, and the Schweizers, I’ve flown are still flying. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/10 "2010-06-08T04:10:30Z")
I flew [the PA-28 in the background of this shot](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Navair/Cessna-R182-Skylane/1410287/M/) many times during my PPL training. Then a group of Army cadets took it out and crashed it, killing all 4 of them and destroying the aircraft. I was a passenger in [BA’s 777 G-YMMM](http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-777-236-ER/1321215/M/) a couple of years before it crashed on approach to Heathrow and was written off (thankfully no fatalities). In an opposite manner, last year I was on [the Qantas 747, VH-OJH](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Qantas/Boeing-747-438/0051386/M/), which overran the runway in Bangkok in 1999. There was substantial damage (the figure thrown around at the time was “up to $100 million”), but was repaired rather than being written off. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/11 "2010-06-09T03:38:28Z")
I have only been on a helicopter once but it was exciting. The operator went over a small mountain and then went straight down on the other side. I was screaming and it felt like a roller coaster ride. I love choppers in the movies too. I’m sorry to see the chopper bit the big one. Kinda like going to the junk yard and looking at an old wreck you once drove. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/12 "2010-06-09T14:44:54Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I have only been on a helicopter once but it was exciting. I’m sure the last pilot of N701SH thought it was an exciting flight, too. 😛 A helicopter went down in the water yesterday up here, and they’re showing the story on NWCN. They’re saying ‘The pilot hit the wrong lever and shut off the engine.’ Doncha just love it when reporters try to talk about aircraft? N7069J is a 1970 Bell 47G. (Looks like the _M_A_S_H\* helicopters.) I’m not familiar with their controls. The R22 has the mixture control and the trim control near each other on the console. (The R22 trim is rudimentary; basically a bungee that applies stick pressure to the right. There’s a knob that you pull up or push down to turn right-trim on or off.) Unlike an airplane, helicopters don’t have a flywheel (the prop) to keep the engine turning, so if you over-lean the engine it will stop. The R22 has a short, clear plastic tube that lives on the mixture control so if you accidentally pull the mixture when you mean to pull the trim you end up holding this piece of plastic instead of killing the engine. Low-tech, but it works. As I said, I’m not familiar with the 47’s controls; but I did find [this image](http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/001-100/walk055_bell47G/images%20Pascal%20Cholin/21instrument%20panel%20+%20radio.JPG) showing that the 47 has something that looks like the ‘throttle quadrant’ on some airplanes. (Obviously the throttle isn’t panel-mounted on a helicopter.) I assume the lever with the red knob is the mixture. I don’t know what the longer lever is. If I’m correct, I can see how the pilot may have pulled the mixture inadvertently. The aircraft lost power at 300 feet and flipped over when it hit the water. The pilot and his wife escaped without serious injury (‘Bruises’, said the reporter). The float-equipped helicopter was shown being towed upside-down by a boat. I looked up the registration, and I see it’s in the Restricted category and had been used in forestry. I wonder why it’s Restricted? ISTM that a 47G should be in the Normal category. Anyway, I’d like to read the NTSB report. By the time it comes out I’ll have forgotten though. And no, I’ve not flown that one. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/13 "2010-06-10T03:11:07Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I have only been on a helicopter once but it was exciting. The first three times I rode in helicopters I took off in them but didn’t land in them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/14 "2011-08-21T00:23:36Z")
So I’m transcribing my logbooks into Excel. Before I started helicopters, I mostly flew Cessna Skyhawks. Just for the sake of accuracy, I decided to add the model designator where it was missing; e.g., C-172K instead of just C-172. I came across a registration number of a plane I flew once, and looked it up in the database. The number is not assigned, so I googled it. N3443E was a Cessna 172N. It crashed into trees in Flagstaff, AZ one year and twelve days after I flew it. There were no or minor injuries to the sole occupant. From the report: Findings 1. © AIRCRAFT HANDLING - POOR - PILOT IN COMMAND 2. © CARBURETOR HEAT - IMPROPER - PILOT IN COMMAND 3. (F) WEATHER CONDITION - HIGH DENSITY ALTITUDE 4. © AIRSPEED - INADEQUATE - PILOT IN COMMAND 5. (F) LACK OF TOTAL EXPERIENCE - PILOT IN COMMAND 6. © STALL/MUSH - INADVERTENT - PILOT IN COMMAND . ---
**Author:** ![MobiusStripes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MobiusStripes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MobiusStripes)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/15 "2011-08-21T00:49:34Z")
As long as you weren’t in them when they went down it sounds like you’re doing ok 🙂 I know this is a bit old – given the settling with power situation – what is the correct pilot action to correct the situation since applying more power/collective doesn’t do it. Pitch down and gain some airspeed to lose the trapped downwash (excuse the highly inaccurate terms). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/16 "2011-08-21T00:59:33Z")
> [@MobiusStripes](#): > > I know this is a bit old – given the settling with power situation – what is the correct pilot action to correct the situation since applying more power/collective doesn’t do it. Pitch down and gain some airspeed to lose the trapped downwash (excuse the highly inaccurate terms). Lower the collective and increase forward speed. Lowering the collective will reduce the power that is contributing to the vortex ring state, and increasing forward speed flies you out of it. Of course you need to have the altitude to recover, so don’t get into vortex ring state close to the ground. ---
**Author:** ![MobiusStripes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MobiusStripes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MobiusStripes)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/17 "2011-08-21T01:09:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Lower the collective and increase forward speed. Lowering the collective will reduce the power that is contributing to the vortex ring state, and increasing forward speed flies you out of it. Of course you need to have the altitude to recover, so don’t get into vortex ring state close to the ground. Thanks! (I notice I missed all the question marks on my questions. Sorry!) Is that something that helicopter pilots practice (with sufficient altitude)? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/18 "2011-08-21T01:56:03Z")
> [@MobiusStripes](#): > > Is that something that helicopter pilots practice (with sufficient altitude)? Not a lot. I’m still transcribing, and I haven’t done the Remarks yet; so I don’t know when we did it. Just going from memory, I think it was demonstrated once and I had to demonstrate one recovery. I think we were at 2,000 or 3,000 feet (which is higher AGL than we usually flew). ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/19 "2011-08-21T02:32:07Z")
I just had this mental image of **Johnny L.A.** as the gremlin in that Twilight Zone episode, tearing up the wing of an airplane… dunno why… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885/20 "2011-08-21T05:31:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Sorry for yet _another_ helicopter thread, but I’ve just come across [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00qICdaUX4&feature=fvw) and I wanted to share. At least it looks peaceful. Seriously, it looks like it is just tired and taking a nap. That wasn’t the type of image to come to mind in “helicopter crash” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-flew-this-helicopter/541885.md?page=2)