# I, For One, Am Sick of Our New Jedi Pimping Overlord (Warning: Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 22, 2005, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940 "2005-05-22T09:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/61 "2005-05-23T21:24:03Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Well, for one thing, there was mention of “the old Republic” which I took to mean that there was a period of time when the Republic was, in fact, a true Republic, though perhaps with a figurehead royal house at the top, similar to England is today. Ah, I see. I can see how that might strike you that way, but it still seems to me that, on balance, it has always been pretty obvious that the Empire was a relatively recent development. Of course, my perception of this is probably coloured by my next-door-neighbor’s dad, who explained that “Stormtroopers” were so-called in reference to Nazi _sturmtruppen_. He showed us his coffee-table history on the Third Reich, and pointed out all the similarities in an _ad hoc_ history lesson. So apart from a week or two in 1977, the association of the Empire with the rise of the Nazis has always been crystal clear to me. > [@](#): > > As for what made me think that the Empire had been around for a long time, was how run down everything looked. Huh? I could see that if the Empire flagships were looking dilapidated or something, but the Empire is practically the only thing in the _Star Wars_ universe that’s shiny and new-looking. > [@](#): > > The reason why I think it would be better for the Empire to have been far older than it turns out to be is that a galaxy is a big place, and it’s going to take a long time for people to even know that they’ve now got an emperor, muchless get so pissed off at him that they want to overthrow him. Again, that would be better if the whole thing wasn’t _supposed_ to be comic booky in the first place. Distance simply isn’t a barrier in the context of _Star Wars_. People hop into single-occupant vehicles and travel to other star systems without so much as a pee-bucket and a basket of sandwiches. They have instantaneous real-time full-duplex communication between systems, too. In the _Star Wars_ Republic, systems may as well stand in for States. If a sitting U.S. president declared himself Emperor, had all Federal Law Enforcement officers executed, and dismantled the branches of the armed forces that weren’t under his total control, it wouldn’t be long before folks in Washington State (or even Hawaii and Alaska) had some _serious_ concerns. Instant communication between any points in the nation and physical that takes only a few hours. Saying that it would better if it accounted for the tremendous spaces between the stars is like saying it would be better if Lucas grounded _Star Wars_ in reality instead of 1930s and '40s adventure serials like _Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Fighting Devil Dogs, King of the Rocket Men_, etc. It might “better” according to _your_ sensibilities, but you’re bringing in values that aren’t relevant at all to what _Star Wars_ is about. > [@](#): > > The USSR managed to have a pretty bloody and tight fisted reign for over 70 years, and the only reason it collapsed was because of the economic costs of trying to compete with the rest of the world which was organized into doing everything it could to contain the USSR. The Empire appeared to have no such competition and controlled most of the galaxy. Well, sure it did. And there’s every indication that Imperial domination of the galaxy would have lasted a _long, long_ time – if the Rebellion didn’t have the aid of _a hero with magic powers_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/62 "2005-05-23T22:34:35Z")
> [@Master Sparky](#): > > Atrocious dialog? I was pleased to see that not only was the atrocious dialog at a minimum here, but the actors were at a higher level of work and actually minimized much of it. Hayden especially surprised me with how much more comfortable he seemed in the role. Same with Natalie, although she was still the weakest actor of the cast. Even people who _liked_ the film have complained about the wooden acting, so it’s not just me saying that. > [@](#): > > Massive plot holes? Dude, it’s _Star Wars_. I’d hope after six movies, you’d be getting that by now. IMHO, they were worse in this one, than in the others. > [@](#): > > What would you have preferred? Clone troopers throwing water balloons? Perhaps R2 could have plugged into the ship’s computer and executed a stop/drop/roll maneuver upon landing? How about instead of a set piece battle with the ships just parked in orbit, pounding away at one another, you’ve got a high speed chase through the solar system, with Anakin thinking that not only has Palpatine been kidnapped, but various Senators, including his beloved Amadala. Anakin’s so messed up at the thought of losing his honey pot, that he’s flying erratically, wiping out a couple of his wingmen in his desperate bid to catch up with the baddies. He and Obi Wan and a few others manage to do enough damage to Grevious’s ship that it’s forced to crash land on a volcanic planet in the system. Anakin lands nearby, whips out his lightsabre and begins slashing his way through the ship trying to find his squeeze. Kenobi’s a few minutes behind him. When Anakin finds Palpatine and asks him where Amadala is, Palpatine gives a few non-answers calculated to piss Anakin off. Obi Wan shows up, explains to Anakin that Amadala isn’t on the ship, that she’d been sent away by orders of the Jedi Council (who knew all about the marriage). Anakin demands to know where she is, Obi Wan refuses to tell him, they get in a lightsabre battle, Obi Wan manages to pitch Anakin over the edge of a cliff towards a lava flow (Anakin losing his grip on his lightsabre at this point, which falls near Obi Wan), and we don’t have to see Hayden for the rest of the movie. Palpatine, who’s been watching the fight closely, does a force gesture with his hand, to prevent Anakin from being completely turned into a Krispy Kritter. Obi Wan’s ear’s perk up, because he _knows_ something’s happened, but he’s not sure what. Palaptine begins talking to Obi Wan and guiding him away from the cliff edge, while punching commands in on a wrist keypad, and a couple of “dead” droids behind them come to life, scurry over the edge of the cliff, and then scuttle off with the smouldering, but still living, mass of Anakin, who will reappear, later on in the film, wearing a suit that’s halfway between Gen. Grevious’s body and the Vader suit from the original trilogy. > [@](#): > > Having Wookies in the film gave us a chance to see their home planet of Kashyyyk, gaze in awe at how tall those bastards tower over Yoda, and give Lucas a chance to crank out more action figures. Besides, wasn’t it _just adorable_ watching Yoda scamper up Chewie’s arm after he beheaded the Clone troopers? Awww! Hey, I didn’t object to having Wookies in the film, I objected to the _way_ the Wookies were used in the film. George could have put 'em in for 20 minutes, and I wouldn’t have objected. It was just the hype surrounding them being in the film, only to have them in there for about 5 seconds that irritated me. > [@](#): > > Palpatine was really Anakin’s only confidant. Oh, sure, there was Obi-Wan, but he was part of the Jedi Council, and nobody on the Jedi Council wanted to give respect to Anakin. Okay, so he’s a little arrogant and impatient – still, he’s got the skillz to pay da billz, does he not? So when the Council shuns him at every opportunity (and let’s face it – Mace Windu especially couldn’t stand him) he’s got Palpatine to reassure him, to let him know how powerful he truly is. So you’re saying that Amadala never looked Anakin and said, “Let me see that big meatsabre of yours, Ani.”? Having a hot chick say something like that to me, would do more for my ego, than having some creepy old man pat me on the head and tell me he’s got popsicles in his basement. > [@](#): > > Mace’s death had me cheering over my Reese’s Pieces. Screw that arrogant Jedi bastard and his fellow elitist pricks. Lame? Having your arm cut off, fried by lightning, then tossed across the city of Coruscant like a rag doll is a lame death? Good Lord. And think about this, dude – somebody down on the streets of Coruscant has a pretty damn nice purple lightsaber now. Now, if they’re smart, they’ll put it up on eBay: > > L@@K! PURPLE LIGHTSABER ONE OF A KIND, WORKS, NO RESERVE! > > Goodbye, slums of Coruscant. Hello, deluxe apartment in the sky (now available, as the previous owner is recently deceased.) Yeah, well, let me know when it comes up for bid, 'm kay? > [@](#): > > If you had a coughing, wheezing 4-armed alien/droid hybrid thingy holding you hostage, would you not say something to a Jedi stopping by for a bit o’ gas and a pecan nut log? I’d think you’d be counting your lucky stars that the Circle K on the previous planet was closed. Again, I didn’t say it was horrific that Lucas did it, and I was willing to give him that one, even though any decent Earthly forces would have boom mikes to monitor the conversations between the head of a planet and a Jedi who was supposedly “Just passing by.” > [@](#): > > Aw, give R2 some love! He’s got gadgets, and he’s proud of them. By the way, that was not oil that he used on the Super Battle Droids near the beginning of the film. No, the little guy was scared, and that, my friends, was droidarrhea. Just so happens it’s flammable. Too bad he couldn’t have used some of those gadgets in the first trilogy, but I guess Luke was just a worthless kid who cut corners when it came to 'droid maintence. Fine way to repay a friend who’d saved your ass a few times. > [@](#): > > As far as all your questions about the 3000+ degree lava and lack of sweat – don’t you know that CGI lava has no heat? It’s like the Diet Coke of lava. No calories, no heat, no harm, no foul. Funny, I seem to remember Anakin later getting a bit crispy from that stuff. > [@](#): > > He knew he was emperor because, way back in elementary school, Palpatine had Obi Wan pass a note for him to a cute Gungan a few rows back. It said “Do you like me? Check one: \_\_\_ Yesa! \_\_\_\_ Nosa! --Signed, Palpatine the Emperor.” See, even as a kid, Palpatine knew he’d be emperor some day. Well, I’m sure if George gets around to torturing us with another series of movies that’ll be in there. > [@](#): > > I was expecting they’d get Amidala on board, only to have a chestburster rip through, setting up “Star Wars vs. Aliens,” but I was wrong. Heh, it couldn’t have hurt. > [@](#): > > I’ve not seen _Team America: World Police_, but I’m glad I don’t think about fellatio every time a man kneels in front of another man! Yeah, well the scenes have similar set ups, so it’s kind of natural for me to make those comparisons in that kind of situation. > [@](#): > > Dude, they were building the Death Star because it’s fucking COOL! They were building it as the ultimate enforcement for the new Galactic Empire. Yeah, it took nearly 20 years to build the damned thing because Home Depot had it backordered. Good thing the Empire was willing to buy it plain vanilla, as custom modifications (choice of laser blast color, extendable middle finger, etc.) would have required another good 20 or 30 years. Now, Death Star II, yeah, of course that went quicker because computer technology had greatly increased (did you know DS II had Intel Inside?), Wal-Mart began carrying them in stock at a cheaper price (and falling every day!), and they eliminated the building of all restrooms and related facilities to speed up construction. It was part of the Emperor’s new “Use the Force – Hold It” campaign. So did you spooge yourself when you wrote that? > [@](#): > > I always pictured the Empire as a lot like high school. Except with a lot less cute cheerleaders and a hell of a lot more droids and storm troopers. And whiney brats, don’t forget them. > [@](#): > > Wait until you see Yoda join Pepsi to fight Coca-Cola. Oh, you’re gonna _love_ it. Well, I guess the Force told Lucas that pimping was good. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/63 "2005-05-23T22:46:39Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Ah, I see. I can see how that might strike you that way, but it still seems to me that, on balance, it has always been pretty obvious that the Empire was a relatively recent development. Of course, my perception of this is probably coloured by my next-door-neighbor’s dad, who explained that “Stormtroopers” were so-called in reference to Nazi _sturmtruppen_. He showed us his coffee-table history on the Third Reich, and pointed out all the similarities in an _ad hoc_ history lesson. So apart from a week or two in 1977, the association of the Empire with the rise of the Nazis has always been crystal clear to me. Oh, I’d heard all of that over the years (including that the Jedi were the equivalent of Jews), but just because parts of it based on the Nazis, doesn’t mean that the whole thing has to be limited to that. After all, the Nazis _didn’t_ have spaceships and guys running around in plastic armor that couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn.😃 > [@](#): > > Huh? I could see that if the Empire flagships were looking dilapidated or something, but the Empire is practically the only thing in the _Star Wars_ universe that’s shiny and new-looking. Right, like the Empire’s been sucking the wealth out of the galaxy for ages, and hording it for the Emperor, who gets to blow all his money on shiney new starships and Death Stars, while the rest of the guys have to make do with the crap they’ve been able to assemble after raiding the Emperors garbage dump. > [@](#): > > Again, that would be better if the whole thing wasn’t _supposed_ to be comic booky in the first place. Distance simply isn’t a barrier in the context of _Star Wars_. People hop into single-occupant vehicles and travel to other star systems without so much as a pee-bucket and a basket of sandwiches. They have instantaneous real-time full-duplex communication between systems, too. In the _Star Wars_ Republic, systems may as well stand in for States. If a sitting U.S. president declared himself Emperor, had all Federal Law Enforcement officers executed, and dismantled the branches of the armed forces that weren’t under his total control, it wouldn’t be long before folks in Washington State (or even Hawaii and Alaska) had some _serious_ concerns. Instant communication between any points in the nation and physical that takes only a few hours. And they’d probably want to strike back quickly before he’d had a chance to fully consolidate his powers, might even want to see if any of their relatives in the military were upset by this and willing to head to Corcusant _now_, before the guy’s got an even larger clone army at his disposal. > [@](#): > > Saying that it would better if it accounted for the tremendous spaces between the stars is like saying it would be better if Lucas grounded _Star Wars_ in reality instead of 1930s and '40s adventure serials like _Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Fighting Devil Dogs, King of the Rocket Men_, etc. It might “better” according to _your_ sensibilities, but you’re bringing in values that aren’t relevant at all to what _Star Wars_ is about. By your reasoning, then folks shouldn’t be complaing about how awful _The Star Wars Holiday Special_ is. Even Lucas admits that thing **sucked**. > [@](#): > > Well, sure it did. And there’s every indication that Imperial domination of the galaxy would have lasted a _long, long_ time – if the Rebellion didn’t have the aid of _a hero with magic powers_. 😃 Yeah, but he’s up against a villian with magical powers, so you’ve got a bit of a stalemate there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/64 "2005-05-23T23:24:12Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Even people who _liked_ the film have complained about the wooden acting, so it’s not just me saying that. And it’s not just **Master Sparky** saying that the acting was a lot better in this installment. I thought Hayden Christensen, Ewan McGregor, and Ian McDiarmid rocked (although Natalie Portman blew big time). > [@Tuckerfan](#): > > How about instead of a set piece battle with the ships just parked in orbit, pounding away at one another, you’ve got a high speed chase through the solar system, with Anakin thinking that not only has Palpatine been kidnapped, but various Senators, including his beloved Amadala. Anakin’s so messed up at the thought of losing his honey pot, that he’s flying erratically, wiping out a couple of his wingmen in his desperate bid to catch up with the baddies. He and Obi Wan and a few others manage to do enough damage to Grevious’s ship that it’s forced to crash land on a volcanic planet in the system. Anakin lands nearby, whips out his lightsabre and begins slashing his way through the ship trying to find his squeeze. Kenobi’s a few minutes behind him. When Anakin finds Palpatine and asks him where Amadala is, Palpatine gives a few non-answers calculated to piss Anakin off. Obi Wan shows up, explains to Anakin that Amadala isn’t on the ship, that she’d been sent away by orders of the Jedi Council (who knew all about the marriage). Anakin demands to know where she is, Obi Wan refuses to tell him, they get in a lightsabre battle, Obi Wan manages to pitch Anakin over the edge of a cliff towards a lava flow (Anakin losing his grip on his lightsabre at this point, which falls near Obi Wan), and we don’t have to see Hayden for the rest of the movie. Palpatine, who’s been watching the fight closely, does a force gesture with his hand, to prevent Anakin from being completely turned into a Krispy Kritter. Obi Wan’s ear’s perk up, because he _knows_ something’s happened, but he’s not sure what. Palaptine begins talking to Obi Wan and guiding him away from the cliff edge, while punching commands in on a wrist keypad, and a couple of “dead” droids behind them come to life, scurry over the edge of the cliff, and then scuttle off with the smouldering, but still living, mass of Anakin, who will reappear, later on in the film, wearing a suit that’s halfway between Gen. Grevious’s body and the Vader suit from the original trilogy. Wouldn’t it make you feel better to just write and direct your own movie? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/65 "2005-05-23T23:31:09Z")
> [@Tracy Lord](#): > > And it’s not just **Master Sparky** saying that the acting was a lot better in this installment. I thought Hayden Christensen, Ewan McGregor, and Ian McDiarmid rocked (although Natalie Portman blew big time). Ewan McGregor turned in the best performance in the film, IMHO. He consistently performed well, while Ian McDiarmid did fine until his battle with Mace, then it was Grade A Shatner ham to the max. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t it make you feel better to just write and direct your own movie? Well, isn’t that the dream of _every_ fanboy? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/66 "2005-05-24T01:07:27Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > just because parts of it based on the Nazis, doesn’t mean that the whole thing has to be limited to that. And it’s not – but _entirely apart from that analogy_, the script of the first movie is unambiguous about the overthrow of the Republic having taken place within Obi-Wan and Darth Vader’s lifetime, when they were both old enough to have been combatants. So criticism of the prequels based on the complaint that they’re consistent with that aren’t really valid. > [@](#): > > And they’d probably want to strike back quickly before he’d had a chance to fully consolidate his powers, might even want to see if any of their relatives in the military were upset by this and willing to head to Corcusant _now_, before the guy’s got an even larger clone army at his disposal. There’s no indication that people waited twenty years to _start_ rebelling – and insurrections that begin by marching directly on the capitol don’t have a great record of success. Besides, the establishment of the Empire was put across in such a way that it seemed like a good idea at the time, and had the general support of the populace. (Like the trick that Hitler pulled.) It’s not that implausible that it would take a while for a grassroots resistance to assemble and acquire the arms necessary to make a serious attempt to topple the Empire. > [@Tuckerfan](#): > > > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > > > Saying that it would better if it accounted for the tremendous spaces between the stars is like saying it would be better if Lucas grounded Star Wars in reality instead of 1930s and '40s adventure serials like Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Fighting Devil Dogs, King of the Rocket Men, etc. It might “better” according to your sensibilities, but you’re bringing in values that aren’t relevant at all to what Star Wars is about. > > By your reasoning, then folks shouldn’t be complaing about how awful The Star Wars Holiday Special is. Even Lucas admits that thing **sucked**. Can you provide a single example of a complaint against _The Star Wars Holiday Special_ that might also be leveled against _Star Wars_ or the '30s Space Operas on which it is modelled? The _Holiday Special_ sucked precisely because the writers and producers didn’t respect (and seemingly didn’t even _know_) that _Star Wars_ is supposed to be '30s-style sci-fi serial on steroids. These were people who wrote and produced 1970s variety television, and they wrote a 1970s variety television show that featured characters from _Star Wars_. If 1930s sci-fi serials included extended (and singularly unfunny) parodies of TV cooking shows, horrible musical numbers by 1970s singers, bands, and actors, their plots frequently hinged on characters going home for the holidays, and they typically served as vehicles for pitifully alcholic washed-up comedy performers to appear just for the hell of appearing, _then_ there might be something to your analogy. However, I don’t recall ever hearing anyone say “The _Holiday Special_ was so stupid. Han and Chewbacca fly to Kashyyyk in a single _day_! Space is _big!_” The _Star Wars Holiday Special_ sucked because it was made by people who wanted to make _Star Wars_ fit _their_ ideas about what’s entertaining, without regard for what made _Star Wars_ work in the first place. God, I hate people like that. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/67 "2005-05-24T01:23:10Z")
Why is it so hard for people to believe that some did not like the movie. 1)“Love can’t save you. Only my new powers can save you.” 2)It had a lava fall because fighting on lava just isn’t x-treme enough. I’m surprised they didn’t cameo Buzz Bunny. 3)Jedi that have been blocking shots from all directions in the two previous movies suddenly turn retarted due to special plan 66. 4)How many hands must a jedi lop off before you can call him a master? 5)Padme dies of a broken heart!?! Why? Wasn’t a crushed windpipe good enough? 6)Palpatine is revealed to have an ass for a head. Big ole butt crack right down the middle. 7)And how about the shoving in of Chewbacca? Wasn’t that great writing there? 8)Any bit of dialogue between Padme and Anakin. A good example is the whole “blinded by love” clusterfuck. 9)Anakin cannot tell that Padme is terribly pregnant even though he hugs the terribly pregnant Padme 10)[SPOILER]Palpatine: Aren’t the sith great? Boy I sure do love them sith. You know who are the best people ever? The sith. Anakin:Oh, okay. Palpatine:By the way. I’m a sith lord. Anakin: :eek: OMG WTF??[/SPOILER] Come on people. This movie was crap. ---
**Author:** ![Keapon\_Laffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e274bd/32.png) [@Keapon\_Laffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keapon_Laffin)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/68 "2005-05-24T02:16:06Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Right here, numbnuts. Hey jackass, pay attention. Leia was obviously referring to Organa’s wife. She doesn’t know she’s adopted. As far as she knows, her “real” mother was Organa’s wife. If Luke can’t remember her mother, how would Leia? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/69 "2005-05-24T02:35:07Z")
> [@Keapon Laffin](#): > > If Luke can’t remember her mother, how would Leia? This is what we call a “plot hole.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/70 "2005-05-24T03:27:41Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > And it’s not – but _entirely apart from that analogy_, the script of the first movie is unambiguous about the overthrow of the Republic having taken place within Obi-Wan and Darth Vader’s lifetime, when they were both old enough to have been combatants. So criticism of the prequels based on the complaint that they’re consistent with that aren’t really valid. IIRC, and my memory maybe flawed on this point, since I haven’t watched the films in a couple of years because I’ve only been able to find copies of the “Shortbus Editions,” all we know from what Ben has told Luke is that Anakin’s father fought in the Clone Wars, he was betrayed by Vader and killed. I don’t recall Ben saying specifically that the Emperor overthrew the Republic, only that the Emperor was involved in Anakin’s death. England has a Queen, but no one would dare say that they weren’t a democratic country. > [@](#): > > There’s no indication that people waited twenty years to _start_ rebelling – and insurrections that begin by marching directly on the capitol don’t have a great record of success. Seemed to have worked quite well in a few of the former Soviet “Republics” (which weren’t republics until _after_ they had a revolution, even though they were called republics long before that.) > [@](#): > > Besides, the establishment of the Empire was put across in such a way that it seemed like a good idea at the time, and had the general support of the populace. (Like the trick that Hitler pulled.) It’s not that implausible that it would take a while for a grassroots resistance to assemble and acquire the arms necessary to make a serious attempt to topple the Empire. I dunno, Bail Organa seemed pretty pissed about the way things turned out. > [@](#): > > Can you provide a single example of a complaint against _The Star Wars Holiday Special_ that might also be leveled against _Star Wars_ or the '30s Space Operas on which it is modelled? Which version of Star Wars and are you talking about the saga as a whole, or the movie which debuted in 1977? In general, I’d give the **original** Star Wars movie high marks, with the admission that the film did have some minor flaws. I’d give ESB even higher marks in terms of directing and story, while RotJ suffers from poor direction and a badly written story. Now, if you’re talking about the “enhanced edition” of the original Star Wars movie, I’d say that it suffers from piss poor direction. ESB 2.0 fares better, IMHO, other than Luke’s sissyfied scream as he’s falling. RotJ has pretty much the same status before and after, simply because of what Lucas had to work with. But Lucas _doesn’t_ have the excuse that the writers of the 1930s serials had of being forced to rush the films out quickly on a limited budget, with primitive technology. Lucas has oodles of cash and had 20 freakin years between the first batch and this batch to come up with a decent script, and he failed. > [@](#): > > The _Holiday Special_ sucked precisely because the writers and producers didn’t respect (and seemingly didn’t even _know_) that _Star Wars_ is supposed to be '30s-style sci-fi serial on steroids. These were people who wrote and produced 1970s variety television, and they wrote a 1970s variety television show that featured characters from _Star Wars_. > > If 1930s sci-fi serials included extended (and singularly unfunny) parodies of TV cooking shows, horrible musical numbers by 1970s singers, bands, and actors, their plots frequently hinged on characters going home for the holidays, and they typically served as vehicles for pitifully alcholic washed-up comedy performers to appear just for the hell of appearing, _then_ there might be something to your analogy. > > However, I don’t recall ever hearing anyone say “The _Holiday Special_ was so stupid. Han and Chewbacca fly to Kashyyyk in a single _day_! Space is _big!_” > > The _Star Wars Holiday Special_ sucked because it was made by people who wanted to make _Star Wars_ fit _their_ ideas about what’s entertaining, without regard for what made _Star Wars_ work in the first place. > > God, I hate people like that. Way to oversimplify things. First of all, the writers of _The Holiday Special_ couldn’t get the original cast of the movie for the whole program because their schedules wouldn’t allow it. Not to mention Mark Hamill was recovering from a nasty car wreck and had to be buried in make up to hide his scars. So, since they were hired (by Lucas, I might add), they had to come up with _something_ and fairly quickly, too, since it came out a year after the movie was released. That doesn’t give you a lot of time, when you’ve got to write a script, find a cast, build sets, make costumes, and get the thing shot and edited. Hell, even films _without_ special effects take longer to produce. The fact that Lucas picked a team of writers who _weren’t_ science fiction writers is pretty telling. If he’d have picked _someone_ who’d at least had a background in science fiction, we’d have gotten a better product, even if they _didn’t_ know Star Wars. Oh, and you might just find this summary of the opening of one of the early drafts for the **original** _Star Wars_ script. > [@](#): > > The opening bit goes: > > FADE IN: > > 1. SPACE > A sea of stars is broken by the vast blue surface of the planet OGANA (or OCANA–this is like a 20th gen xerox). Five small moons slowly drif into viewfrom the far side of the planet. The main title is followed by a roll-up: > > - > > Until the recent GREAT REBELLION, the DAI NOGAS were the most feared warriors in the universe. For one hundred thousand years, generations of DAI perfected their art as the personal bodyguards of the king. They were chief architects of the invincible ROYAL SPACE FORCE, which expanded the King’s power > across the galaxy fom the celestial equator to the farthest stars. > > Now those legendary warriors are all but extinct. One by > one they have been hunted down and destroyed as > enemies of the NEW GALACTIC > KINGDOM by a ferocious > warrior sect THE > LEGIONS OF > LETTOW.\* > > It then goes on to describe a kid on the ocean planet watching a space battle with “electro-binoculars” The kid is “Justin Valor”, his dad is “Akira” and his little brother is “Bink”. Justin is worried that “they” have found them. They use “chrome lazerrifles” that “sparkle like a beacon” on a LETTOW warrior all in black leather with a face mask. The warrior (who’s not Vader–he dies–although he’s clearly the prototype) snuffs Bink, before he dies himself. > > It’s not until about page 15 that we meet “GENERAL LUKE SKYWAKER, Commander of the Townowi Star Force. He is a large man, apparently in his early forties, but actually much older. Everyone senses the aura of power that radiates from this great warrior. He looks weary, but is staill a magnficent looking warrior. His face, cracked and weatherd by exotic climates, is set off by a close silver beard, and dark penetrating eyes.” In other words, he’s Obi-Wan. > > And upon looking at it again, this is clearly a later revision of the first draft, as all historical data shows that the character was originally going to be Luke “Starkiller”. (And Han is an oversized green scaley lizard-thing > > There’s no _way_ they began filming with this script. None. There’s no parallels–nothing even close to the finished product…and when I peeked ahead to the end, there’s a solid clean ending–no “To be continued next episode” stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/71 "2005-05-24T04:18:08Z")
> [@Keapon Laffin](#): > > Hey jackass, pay attention. > Leia was obviously referring to Organa’s wife. She doesn’t know she’s adopted. As far as she knows, her “real” mother was Organa’s wife. > > If Luke can’t remember her mother, how would Leia? Why the hell would Luke bother qualifying his statement with the word “real” if they didn’t know that Leia was adopted? Or do people under your rock routinely refer to their caregivers as “real parents”? “Hey Real Mom! I’m home from school! Thanks for violently ejecting me out of your womb ten years ago!” :rolleyes: Face it, it’s a plot hole. Luke and Leia’s dialogue may not specifically mention adoption, but it is quite clear in implying that Leia (a) knows she was adopted, and (b) has memories of her biological mother. Padme’s death in childbirth is a direct contradiction of canon. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/72 "2005-05-24T04:19:14Z")
**Harborwolf** , You didn’t like the movie, fine. Why can’t you let others just enjoy it? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/73 "2005-05-24T06:07:30Z")
I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say, **Tuckerfan**. You say that no science-fiction writers worked on the _Holiday Special_, which fits right into the “_Holiday Special_ Wasn’t Going For What Made _Star Wars_ Awesome” hypothesis, and the opening crawl you quoted sounds like it came straight from Buck Rogers. Where were you going with that? ---
**Author:** ![WilhelmGefallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9f8e36/32.png) [@WilhelmGefallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilhelmGefallen)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/74 "2005-05-24T06:46:14Z")
> [@Tarrsk](#): > > Why the hell would Luke bother qualifying his statement with the word “real” if they didn’t know that Leia was adopted? Or do people under your rock routinely refer to their caregivers as “real parents”? Alternative option, Leias’ adopted mother (Organa) dies, Mr. Organa re-marries but never mentions to Leia that she is adopted. Mrs Organa the second is now Leias step-mother, not her real mother ie Lukes question. oh wait, that means people cant whine about a plot hole :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/75 "2005-05-24T06:50:27Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > I didn’t hate the fact that there was a giant space battle. I didn’t like the fact that that particular battle _looked_ so much like the one in RotJ. There was even that whole bit when they were rescuing Palpatine and you could see everything going on outside the window and I kept expecting Palpatine to say, “Oh, I’m afraid that this battlestation is fully operational.” Lucas has got the bacon to do a better job than that. It’s not like he had to crib old film footage and sets to save a few bucks. Jesus. Fucking. Christ. You missed the entire fucking point. If you didn’t appreciate the parallel, and why it was made parallel, then there was no hope for you and this film in the first place. You should have just gotten up and left. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/76 "2005-05-24T07:03:16Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Why is it so hard for people to believe that some did not like the movie. I have no problem with you not liking the movie. It had many flaws. Note that almost no one is arguing with statements like “the acting was wooden”. > [@](#): > > 2)It had a lava fall because fighting on lava just isn’t x-treme enough. I’m surprised they didn’t cameo Buzz Bunny. One of the few early spoilers I hear was that it involved Anakin and Obi Wan “surfing” on lava platforms, and I was afraid it was going to be some x-treme sports thing, and was prepared to hate it. But I thought that worked fine > [@](#): > > 3)Jedi that have been blocking shots from all directions in the two previous movies suddenly turn retarted due to special plan 66. This criticism is just plain groundless. Jedi can definitely be killed by enough people with blasters. In ATOC, Jango Fett singlehandedly kills a Jedi just by shooting her repeatedly. Some Jedi presumably are better than others. > [@](#): > > 7)And how about the shoving in of Chewbacca? Wasn’t that great writing there? It was slightly pandering to the fans, I agree. I don’t see how that makes the movie worse than if that wookie had been named “Fred”. > [@](#): > > 9)Anakin cannot tell that Padme is terribly pregnant even though he hugs the terribly pregnant Padme She wasn’t all that pregnant yet. I do agree, however, that the time scale over which the movie takes place was a bit undefined. > [@](#): > > 10)[SPOILER]Palpatine: Aren’t the sith great? Boy I sure do love them sith. You know who are the best people ever? The sith. > > Anakin:Oh, okay. > > Palpatine:By the way. I’m a sith lord. > > Anakin: :eek: OMG WTF??[/SPOILER] The only way I can rationalize that, and the fact that the Jedi in general, who are specifically looking for a Sith master, can’t figure out who it is, is to assume that Palpy has some mind-clouding power. I agree that that could have been handled better. > [@](#): > > Come on people. This movie was crap. Yes, all the very large number of dopers who liked it are just simpleminded idiots. I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it, but I thought it was quite good, although flawed. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/77 "2005-05-24T07:06:44Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > It’s not that I don’t like the symmetry, I mean for fucks sake, it’s not I didn’t know what the damn thing was abouyt before I went into see it, I just didn’t like the fact that Lucas seemed to lack the imagination to stage his battles a bit differently. First of all, the exterior battles between the Republic Star Destroyers and the Separatist Fleet is NOTHING like the battle in ROTJ, where very little occured between the Mon Cal fleet and the Imperial armada, and the entire thing was seemingly fought out by fighters. Secondly, you know jack shit about filmmaking. Lucas finally goes back to his film brat roots, finally uses (in most cases) proper cinematic techniques to turn the world of Episode I into the world of Episode IV, and you’re acting like it’s wrong because you don’t get it. The fact that the duels between Anakin and Darth Tyrannus and Luke and Darth Vader are so similar isn’t some sort of in-joke or lack of imagination. It is a visual way of relaying a great deal of information about the Sith, and particularly about Darth Sidious. > [@](#): > > That was enough for me, I didn’t need to see a space battle which so closely resembled one I’d seen before. You must hate Star Trek, and how they use the same special effects over and over again, huh? > [@](#): > > One fo the things that I _like_ about the Star Wars is that it took many ideas and presented them in new and original ways. Ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Jesus Christ, that was funny. Moving on. > [@](#): > > Well, how about Luke in RotJ knowing that Leia had two different mothers, but it never having been mentioned prior to that? Just because we never see Leia tell Luke that she was adopted, that means that she never told Luke that she was adopted? Characters are allowed to have conversations with each other off screen. > [@](#): > > Yeah, but if you’re so damned powerful (“The power of this station is nothing when compared to the Force.” Darth Vader) then what the hell makes you think that you’re going to have to need something like a planet destroying space station? The same reason you want a giant army: The ability to spread your reach more broadly. > [@](#): > > A Death Star is a lot bigger than a B2, Irrelevent. The resources available to the Empire are larger, comparatively, to those the USA than the Death Star is to a B2 bomber. > [@](#): > > That’s, after all, one of the reasons they had to attack the DS II during construction because they knew the Empire was going to fix the design so that the Rebellion wouldn’t be able to use the same tactics to blow it up again. The second Death Star is just a giant trap. There’s no real indication that it was ever intended to be anything more than that. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/78 "2005-05-24T07:11:21Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Well, for one thing, there was mention of “the old Republic” which I took to mean that there was a period of time when the Republic was, in fact, a true Republic, though perhaps with a figurehead royal house at the top, similar to England is today. Gradually, however, the royal house took over more and more authority and became more corrupt. Another thing was that you never really had an idea of when the Clone Wars happened or how old Anakin was when he fathered Luke. Nor did we have an idea of how long the Clone Wars lasted. Admittedly reading more into it than Lucas ever put in the original trilogy, I always figured that it happened more than twenty or so years before Luke was born, and that the Clone Wars was something like the seige of Troy which lasted ten years. For someone who sat around dreaming up his own version of the Star Wars backstory, and now moans that Lucas’s version isn’t identical, you seem to have no knowledge of the wider Star Wars canon. > [@](#): > > The reason why I think it would be better for the Empire to have been far older than it turns out to be is that a galaxy is a big place, and it’s going to take a long time for people to even know that they’ve now got an emperor, muchless get so pissed off at him that they want to overthrow him. Why? Instantaneous, cross-galactic communications have been common in the Star Wars universe for **25,000 years**. Information that is released publicly is instantaneously accessible anywhere in the Galaxy. As for the Rebellion, it was begun in 19 BBY, the same year that the Empire was formed. That was a subplot dropped from ROTS. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/79 "2005-05-24T07:33:06Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > How about instead of a set piece battle with the ships just parked in orbit, pounding away at one another, you’ve got a high speed chase through the solar system, with Anakin thinking that not only has Palpatine been kidnapped, but various Senators, including his beloved Amadala. Anakin’s so messed up at the thought of losing his honey pot, that he’s flying erratically, wiping out a couple of his wingmen in his desperate bid to catch up with the baddies. He and Obi Wan and a few others manage to do enough damage to Grevious’s ship that it’s forced to crash land on a volcanic planet in the system. Anakin lands nearby, whips out his lightsabre and begins slashing his way through the ship trying to find his squeeze. Kenobi’s a few minutes behind him. When Anakin finds Palpatine and asks him where Amadala is, Palpatine gives a few non-answers calculated to piss Anakin off. Obi Wan shows up, explains to Anakin that Amadala isn’t on the ship, that she’d been sent away by orders of the Jedi Council (who knew all about the marriage). Anakin demands to know where she is, Obi Wan refuses to tell him, they get in a lightsabre battle, Obi Wan manages to pitch Anakin over the edge of a cliff towards a lava flow (Anakin losing his grip on his lightsabre at this point, which falls near Obi Wan), and we don’t have to see Hayden for the rest of the movie. Palpatine, who’s been watching the fight closely, does a force gesture with his hand, to prevent Anakin from being completely turned into a Krispy Kritter. Obi Wan’s ear’s perk up, because he _knows_ something’s happened, but he’s not sure what. Palaptine begins talking to Obi Wan and guiding him away from the cliff edge, while punching commands in on a wrist keypad, and a couple of “dead” droids behind them come to life, scurry over the edge of the cliff, and then scuttle off with the smouldering, but still living, mass of Anakin, who will reappear, later on in the film, wearing a suit that’s halfway between Gen. Grevious’s body and the Vader suit from the original trilogy. As a writer, you make an excellent machinist. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying that Amadala never looked Anakin and said, “Let me see that big meatsabre of yours, Ani.”? Having a hot chick say something like that to me, would do more for my ego, than having some creepy old man pat me on the head and tell me he’s got popsicles in his basement. Anakin’s relationship to Padme was interlinked with his relationship with Palpatine. They were both the people he considered his true family. However, he’d only been married to Padme for three years. Palpatine had been Anakin’s father figure for over a decade. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940/80 "2005-05-24T07:33:21Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > 4)How many hands must a jedi lop off before you can call him a master? _The answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind, The answer is blowing in the wind…_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-for-one-am-sick-of-our-new-jedi-pimping-overlord-warning-spoilers/304940.md?page=5)