# I give. "Turtles all the way down". Dilbert just used it. Where's it from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 7, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584 "2011-02-07T22:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/21 "2011-02-08T15:22:22Z")
You mean it’s not about a chocoholic/nut lover’s vision of Heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/22 "2011-02-08T15:48:23Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > And I think its earlier then any source cited in the wikipedia link. Not quite: “[Note also that Lewis Carroll, the author of Alice in Wonderland, used the story of the tortoise for a philosophical regressus-argument in one of the first volumes of the philosophical Journal Mind (1895).](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down#Other_accounts)” ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/23 "2011-02-08T15:49:08Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Actually, the sources are all fairly clustered. So are the turtles. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/24 "2011-02-08T15:55:04Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > Not quite: “[Note also that Lewis Carroll, the author of Alice in Wonderland, used the story of the tortoise for a philosophical regressus-argument in one of the first volumes of the philosophical Journal Mind (1895).](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down#Other_accounts)” The [Lewis Carrol](http://www.ditext.com/carroll/tortoise.html) article has a tortise and some talk of infinity, but it isn’t remotely the same story. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/25 "2011-02-08T15:55:13Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > [Quote=Simplicio] > > Actually, the sources are all fairly clustered. So are the turtles. [/QUOTE] Mmmm, [turtle clusters!](http://ny-image1.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.82324477.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/26 "2011-02-08T15:58:24Z")
Look up 4 entries ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/27 "2011-02-08T16:04:05Z")
Hello to recursion! Hello, hello! Just to pile on the recursive bandwagon, it’s SDMB [reference to previous] Turtle Threads all the way down! [I give. “Turtles all the way down”. Dilbert just used it. Where’s it from? Reply to Thread (2011)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13443176&postcount=27) [Basic programming question (2011)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13404243&postcount=4) [How do they get large equipment out of the hole?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13080412) (2010) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12621195](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12621562&postcount=22) (2010) [Molten metal turtles all the way down?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=480514) (2008) [“It’s turtles all the way down.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=46361) (2000) [Flat Earth Society?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46357) (2000) … Ob\_Smilies\_All\_The\_Way\_Down 🙂 😕 :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: 🆒 😛 😉 😃 :o :dubious: ☹ :smack: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/28 "2011-02-08T16:30:41Z")
I found [a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired](http://books.google.com/books?id=SGtYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=%22all+the+way+down%22+turtle+OR+tortoise+OR+elephant&hl=en&ei=hWlRTdznJ9K5tgfD4sjKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=%22all%20the%20way%20down%22%20turtle%20OR%20tortoise%20OR%20elephant&f=false). The clergyman arguing in favor of divine inspiration uses the “turtles all the way down” line to mock his opponent, to “Vehement and vociferous applause.” An October 1863 edition of [The Methodist Review](http://books.google.com/books?id=XIlJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA542&dq=%22all+the+way+down%22+turtle+OR+tortoise+OR+elephant&hl=en&ei=MmpRTcqQCMKgtgffqqDfCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwATjSAQ#v=onepage&q=%22all%20the%20way%20down%22%20turtle%20OR%20tortoise%20OR%20elephant&f=false) relates it as “ **rocks** all the way down,” which it calls the “schoolboy’s proverbial solution” to the question of ultimate causes. “Rocks all the way down” appears to be the earlier form. The whole “what does the world stand on … rocks all the way down” version turns up in the [September 15, 1838 version of a periodical called _The New York Mirror_](http://books.google.com/books?id=4n1NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=%22rocks+all+the+way+down%22&hl=en&ei=-2xRTafLCoiltwf34dmKCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=%22rocks%20all%20the%20way%20down%22&f=false). (I hope those links work. They are to Gogle Books pages, with the relevant phrase highlighted). ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/29 "2011-02-08T16:42:39Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > That’s also something the physics community was “worried” about for awhile. > > You had atoms. Then the atoms were found to be made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Then these were found to made of quarks. Also, over a hundred? other particles besides electrons, protons, and neutrons were found. > > For awhile there, it kinda looked like maybe it was “turtles all the way down” and that all basic components would be found to be made of “lower” other basic components. And on and on and downward and downward… > > Note, I am not a particle physics guru, but thats my 2 cent impression of the times… Apropos of very little - this was the background for Doc Smith’s _Skylark_ series - our hero would discover a new level of physics and use it to save the world/galaxy/universe. Then he’d need a new level for the next book, since the tech from the previous book was now in wide use. Joe ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/30 "2011-02-08T16:44:45Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > I found [a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired](http://books.google.com/books?id=SGtYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=%22all+the+way+down%22+turtle+OR+tortoise+OR+elephant&hl=en&ei=hWlRTdznJ9K5tgfD4sjKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=%22all%20the%20way%20down%22%20turtle%20OR%20tortoise%20OR%20elephant&f=false). The clergyman arguing in favor of divine inspiration uses the “turtles all the way down” line to mock his opponent, to “Vehement and vociferous applause.” Well, William James was born in 1840’s, so I guess thats the end of that theory. Good finds though (and the links work, for me anyways). ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/31 "2011-02-08T17:14:21Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Brevity is … wit. This is one of my favorite Simpsons references. Just so, well, witty and brief. > [@Bayard](#): > > I found [a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired](http://books.google.com/books?id=SGtYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=%22all+the+way+down%22+turtle+OR+tortoise+OR+elephant&hl=en&ei=hWlRTdznJ9K5tgfD4sjKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=%22all%20the%20way%20down%22%20turtle%20OR%20tortoise%20OR%20elephant&f=false). … So, what you’re saying is that it’s turtle quotes all the way down? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/32 "2011-02-08T17:20:15Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > I found [a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired](http://books.google.com/books?id=SGtYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=%22all+the+way+down%22+turtle+OR+tortoise+OR+elephant&hl=en&ei=hWlRTdznJ9K5tgfD4sjKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=%22all%20the%20way%20down%22%20turtle%20OR%20tortoise%20OR%20elephant&f=false). The clergyman arguing in favor of divine inspiration uses the “turtles all the way down” line to mock his opponent, to “Vehement and vociferous applause.” > > An October 1863 edition of [The Methodist Review](http://books.google.com/books?id=XIlJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA542&dq=%22all+the+way+down%22+turtle+OR+tortoise+OR+elephant&hl=en&ei=MmpRTcqQCMKgtgffqqDfCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwATjSAQ#v=onepage&q=%22all%20the%20way%20down%22%20turtle%20OR%20tortoise%20OR%20elephant&f=false) relates it as “ **rocks** all the way down,” which it calls the “schoolboy’s proverbial solution” to the question of ultimate causes. > > “Rocks all the way down” appears to be the earlier form. The whole “what does the world stand on … rocks all the way down” version turns up in the [September 15, 1838 version of a periodical called _The New York Mirror_](http://books.google.com/books?id=4n1NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=%22rocks+all+the+way+down%22&hl=en&ei=-2xRTafLCoiltwf34dmKCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=%22rocks%20all%20the%20way%20down%22&f=false). Fine work. (And BTW, my earlier links about Richmond deal with William James brother Henry, but they corresponded extensively.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/33 "2011-02-08T21:05:05Z")
Quoth **The Controvert** : > [@](#): > > Hello to recursion! Hello, hello! Hello to recursion! Hello, hello! ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/34 "2011-02-08T23:53:06Z")
I thought it was Asimov, but a search in Google books shows a reference to Oliver Corwin Sabin from 1905. [http://books.google.com/books?id=mTYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238&dq=%22turtles+all+the+way+down%22&hl=en&ei=JNVRTd7dPIW4tweIuf3WCQ&sa=X&oi=book\_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22turtles%20all%20the%20way%20down%22&f=false](http://books.google.com/books?id=mTYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238&dq=%22turtles+all+the+way+down%22&hl=en&ei=JNVRTd7dPIW4tweIuf3WCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22turtles%20all%20the%20way%20down%22&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/35 "2011-02-09T00:18:17Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > But Yertle was the turtle at the top of the stack. we’re interested in the turtle at the _bottom_. Incidentally, that turtle is standing on another turtle’s back. EDIT: A thought came to me: What if the turtle on the bottom in fact… turns out to be on a treadmill? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/36 "2011-02-09T00:33:53Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Incidentally, that turtle is standing on another turtle’s back. > > EDIT: A thought came to me: What if the turtle on the bottom in fact… turns out to be on a treadmill? That’s the beauty of it! The turtle doesn’t DO anything! ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/37 "2011-02-09T06:31:40Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > That’s the beauty of it! The turtle doesn’t DO anything! I think it swam down into a trench once, for twenty minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/38 "2011-02-09T06:49:07Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I think it swam down into a trench once, for twenty minutes. There were turtles in it… ---
**Author:** ![VanillaGorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VanillaGorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanillaGorilla)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/39 "2011-02-09T07:07:15Z")
> [@Sam\_A.Robrin](#): > > There were turtles in it… You know what else was there? 14 k of g. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584/40 "2011-02-09T12:41:34Z")
> [@Sam\_A.Robrin](#): > > There were turtles in it… With a 1920’s style death-ray. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-give-turtles-all-the-way-down-dilbert-just-used-it-wheres-it-from/570584.md?page=3)