# I glory in the name of Briton **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 29, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924 "2007-06-29T14:45:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/1 "2007-06-29T14:45:11Z")
Yesterday I learned that my application for citizenship in the UK had been accepted. Without having left the cozy confines of New-and-Improved-England, I now find myself a citizen of Merry Olde England as well. So how did this transubstantiation occur, you ask? Well, it happens that my mother, though she’s been a citizen of the U.S. for nearly half a century, never actually lost the British citizenship of her birth. Through her, I was able to apply. And now I’m a thousand dollars lighter, but richer by one additional nationality. So there it is… I’m a newbie Brit. I’m just hoping at this point to avoid a full-scale identity crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/2 "2007-06-29T14:52:26Z")
Everything will be fine, as long as you consume at least one steak and kidney pie per day. You did read that bit of small print, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/3 "2007-06-29T14:55:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] So there it is… I’m a newbie Brit. I’m just hoping at this point to avoid a full-scale identity crisis. [/QUOTE] Congratulations. Now just try to avoid revolting yourself, okay? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/4 "2007-06-29T14:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Everything will be fine, as long as you consume at least one steak and kidney pie per day. You did read that bit of small print, didn’t you? [/QUOTE] At least it’s not liver and lights! ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/5 "2007-06-29T14:56:36Z")
Welcome to the club. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/6 "2007-06-29T14:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Well, it happens that my mother, though she’s been a citizen of the U.S. for nearly half a century, never actually lost the British citizenship of her birth. Through her, I was able to apply. [/QUOTE] So you were born on or after January 1st, 1983. Because if you were born before that day, the old rule would have applied, and you would only inherit UK citizenship through your father. I had a UK-born UK-citizen mother, and I am not entitled to UK citizenship, though I am entitled to a Right of Abode as a result of that, and one of my children is now living in the US on an Ancestry Visa as a result of that too. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/7 "2007-06-29T14:59:09Z")
Steak-and-kidney pie… yummm… just like mom used to make. Drat. Now I’m hungry. Oh, and congratulations having a new official citizenship as well as your old one! Just don’t go to war with yourself. I understand that that can be rather embarassing, especially if done where others can see it. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/8 "2007-06-29T15:01:34Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] So you were born on or after January 1st, 1983. Because if you were born before that day, the old rule would have applied, and you would only inherit UK citizenship through your father. [/QUOTE] No, they changed the rules at some point to make them less odiously patrilineal. Now if you were born between 1961 and 1983 (I think), you can apply through your mother. Suffice it to say that if I had been born after January 1 of 1983, I could not have been older than six months old when I graduated from high school! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/9 "2007-06-29T15:19:34Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] At least it’s not liver and lights! [/QUOTE] From which comment I can only surmise you must have skipped the ‘offal’ clause of the terms and conditions very lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/10 "2007-06-29T15:21:23Z")
But I can assure you, I scrutinized the “cheeses” clause with great attention! ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/11 "2007-06-29T15:21:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] No, they changed the rules at some point to make them less odiously patrilineal. Now if you were born between 1961 and 1983 (I think), you can apply through your mother. Suffice it to say that if I had been born after January 1 of 1983, I could not have been older than six months old when I graduated from high school! [/QUOTE] So, I just need to wait for them to move the date back another 20 years (approximately), and I can be a UK citizen like my younger brother (who is a UK citizen because he was born in the UK). ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/12 "2007-06-29T15:29:16Z")
**Giles** , are you saying both that your father was not a citizen of the UK, and that you were born before 1961? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/13 "2007-06-29T15:30:37Z")
But sadly, this does not apply to those whose parents were born outside the UK, but whose _grandparents_ were all born in the UK. And I even managed to arrange all English grandparents, niot just British! Oh well. At least I can apply for a UK Ancestry visa. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/14 "2007-06-29T15:39:38Z")
**Sunspace** , it is possible that though your parents were born outside the UK, they were British citizens at birth, and you can apply through them. Of course, as a resident of the Commonwealth, there are different rules and wrinkles that apply to you. But I wouldn’t rule anything out without going over the rules with a fine-toothed comb. One of the things I discovered in this process is just how hideously confusing the rules are. The British empire left something of a mess in this regard, what with differences between colonies, possessions, trust territories, and the like. I can only imagine what the file might look like if your father were from the Trust Territory of Wallis and Fortuna, but working in British government service, and happened to marry before 1947 someone of Cypriot-Egyptian parentage in British-Mandate Palestine… My case was relatively simple, and I was lucky to have the documents to hand. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/15 "2007-06-29T15:57:47Z")
Congratulations. Do you have to attend one of those citizenship ceremonies to be official, or do they just post you a passport? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/16 "2007-06-29T16:13:32Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] **Giles** , are you saying both that your father was not a citizen of the UK, and that you were born before 1961? [/QUOTE] Right. I was born before January 26th, 1949, in Australia. My father was an Australian-born British subject, and at that time my mother was a UK-born British subject. I’m choosing words carefully here, because back then there was neither Australian citizenship nor UK citizenship. The family moved to the UK before 1949, so that on 26th January, 1949, my father and I both became Australian citizens, but continued to be British subjects as well, until 1983, when the concept of “British subject” was abolished in Australian and in UK law. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/17 "2007-06-29T16:23:41Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] **Sunspace** , it is possible that though your parents were born outside the UK, they were British citizens at birth, and you can apply through them. Of course, as a resident of the Commonwealth, there are different rules and wrinkles that apply to you. But I wouldn’t rule anything out without going over the rules with a fine-toothed comb. [/quote] Actually, I suspect my case is rather simple. My grandparents were all born in England; my parents were born in Saskatchewan and Ontario, Canada. My mother’s sister, the eldest, was born in England, I believe, but not my mother herself. So I’m reasonably certain that I can get a UK Ancestry visa, but I can’t get UK citizenship. (If I had an Irish grandparent, I think I could get _Irish_ citizenship, but unfortunately I don’t.) > [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > One of the things I discovered in this process is just how hideously confusing the rules are. The British empire left something of a mess in this regard, what with differences between colonies, possessions, trust territories, and the like. I can only imagine what the file might look like if your father were from the Trust Territory of Wallis and Fortuna, but working in British government service, and happened to marry before 1947 someone of Cypriot-Egyptian parentage in British-Mandate Palestine… _blink_ Dear Og. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/18 "2007-06-29T16:24:56Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] Do you have to attend one of those citizenship ceremonies to be official, or do they just post you a passport? [/QUOTE] I do, here at the consulate. The passport is an extra $300. I tell you, the Exchequer has no reason to complain about _me_. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/19 "2007-06-29T16:28:00Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] Right. I was born before January 26th, 1949, in Australia. My father was an Australian-born British subject, and at that time my mother was a UK-born British subject. I’m choosing words carefully here, because back then there was neither Australian citizenship nor UK citizenship. The family moved to the UK before 1949, so that on 26th January, 1949, my father and I both became Australian citizens, but continued to be British subjects as well, until 1983, when the concept of “British subject” was abolished in Australian and in UK law. [/QUOTE] Huh. Interesting. My parents were both Canadian-born British subjects, then. I believe the Canadian citizenship act only came into force in 1947, so they would have been of high-school age at the time. So they ceased being British subjects at that time, but if they had moved to the UK bofore 1947 they would have remained British subjects? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924/20 "2007-06-29T16:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] _blink_ Dear Og. [/QUOTE] Well, for a real-life example, look at \*\*Giles’\*\*s post above. It can be fiendishly complex, which is why I have the impression that there are a lot of judgment calls made – particularly in the not-so-rare case where people might have a legitimate claim, but are missing documents. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-glory-in-the-name-of-briton/409924.md?page=2)