No, I’m sure I wouldn’t have felt that way, he always came across as a well-read and thoughtful person who never devolved into the cheeseball, manipulative type. That’s why I was surprised he didn’t say “hey, let’s talk about this,” or at least call me later after I’d had time to cool off.
sassyfras:
Up front, my advice is to just say no to Mormonism. Why? Well, let me preface my remarks by saying that I’ve a read a lot of your threads and hence I know that you are an intellectual, unlike many folks on the internet who think they are. So you wouldn’t be happy joining a church or religious movement that wanted to curtail your intellectual explorations of religion. Now if you went Episcopal or Methodist or Lutheran or Quaker or even liberal Catholic, that wouldn’t be a problem. You could explore your faith from any angle and no one would ever tell you to stop doing so.
Now what about Mormonism? Well, it should be obvious that there are only two ways to look at Mormonism. Either Joseph Smith was truly chosen by God to reveal truths both through translations of ancient texts and personal revelations, or else he was a shameless liar and a con artist. Or, in short, I’d agree with what the LDS Apostle Orson Pratt said:
Now I personally believe that the evidence pointing towards ‘shameless liar and con artist’ is overwhelming–more on that in a minute–but for now the question is, how should you try to answer the question. And I’d hope you’d answer is the same way you answer anything that requires intellectual investigation. Read the best arguments from one side, read the best arguments from the other side, and decide for yourself which side has the better arguments. But if you ask about, you’ll find that the members of the LDS church strongly discourage you from taking this approach. They will advise you against reading anything critical of their church, and will instead encourage to look only at the positive side. Lastly, as others have mentioned, they will advise you to put feelings from the Spirit above intellectual judgment.
So that’s my answer. Now I assume that the missionaries will give you the “pro” side in the argument about authenticity. For the “anti” side, try this website: 20truths.info
I’m good friends with a liberal Catholic, and we have many conversations about religion. I’m an atheist now that I’m finished with Mormonism, so we can have very interesting, thoughtful discussions about what faith means, does religion help or harm people, etc. I never had those discussions with a Mormon. I do remember one man in our ward discussing with others that there should be room for intellectual thought within the church, and the overwhelming consensus that the leaders should do the thinking.
My mother recently told about a charismatic teacher in Sunday School, an attorney, who would not just summarize, but also analyze what the General Authorities would say during General Conference. (Mormonism likes the word “general” a lot.) My mother’s comment was that this woman could “easily lead people astray.” That seems to be the worry, that any independent thought will allow the devil a chance to slip in.
The church has changed a lot in the 25+ years I’ve been gone, and it may be more forgiving of it, but there still doesn’t seem to be much curiosity about their religion. I think you can see in responses on this board.
Fortunately, there are many resources on the internet to allow an easy answer to this question.
A lot also depends on where you live. If the LDS church is a small part of the community they will usually be a friendly community like raspberry hunter has described. If the area is predominantly LDS then not so much. I grew up in a small farming community that was 50/50 two religions. People depended on their neighbors in time of need, since the small valley only had about 200 people nobody cared which church you attended when help was needed. I later moved to a bigger town (4000) that about 50% LDS and the rest divided between 7 other religions. An us and them attitude was very evident in everything they did and said. Mormons helped no one unless they were a member in good standing. When my daughter was born with problems the Bishop dismissed my request for help saying my records had not arrived yet so he couldn’t tell if my child deserved it. I told him when my records arrived to tear them up as I was no longer a Mormon. I have never had any regrets.
I got the Free Book. Then they wanted to come over & take it back.
Bastards. 
In all frankness, **sassyfras, **if you are really on the verge of committing to a religion based on its marketing strategy, you need to revisit your thinking here. You don’t decide to believe in a particular religion’s tenets based on convenience, you either do or you don’t. If (as you state) all you’re after is a feeling of community you’d be better off joining a book club or volunteer organisation.
The mormons I know have to show their bishop their pay slip each month, to prove they paid their full 10%. If they fell short, they don’t get to attend Temple, simple as that. They live in Provo and SLC, if that’s of any relevance.
As someone who has no respect for Mormonism, I still have stick up for them and say that this is simply not how it’s done. You pay what you pay, no questions asked UNTIL the end of the year. In December, you are called into the Bishop’s office and asked if you paid a full tithe. It is generally understood that you should pay on the gross, especially in the US where taxes are low. But they don’t check your pay stubs, or at least they shouldn’t. I suppose it’s possible there’s a renegade bishop out there, but I’m guessing this is a mis-communication.
If you actually are employed by the Mormon church, then they may take out the 10% before they pay you, but I’m not sure about that. I seem to remember one guy telling me he still paid on the net, not the gross (although that is really frowned upon, you can still get away with it if you have the cojones).
Well, I’ll stick by the personal word of the mormons I had this exact conversation with. No pay slip, no temple.
I grew up in the heart of Mormonism, Salt Lake City and it wasn’t a particularly friendly ward. My elementary, junior high and high schools were predominately Mormon, and filled with the same cliques you would expect to find in any place. You were accepted in the in group if you had money, and not then find friends elsewhere.
Worship me, and I’ll give you two free books.
THIS. Most of the non-Mormons I know, when they find out I’m LDS, are all, “Oh! I know someone who’s Mormon and is such a nice person and I think Mormons are great!”… unless they’ve lived in Utah, in which case they’re all “I hate Mormons! They suck!” I’ve always lived in places that are predominantly non-Mormon, so I haven’t had that experience. Though I will also add that it seems to work best when there are a critical mass of Mormons but not anything like a majority; I had the opposite problem as a kid where Mormons were such a minority in our town that they were a bit inbred and set in their ways.
Tinkertoy, I’m sorry about your experience, that sounds awful. I’d leave in a heartbeat too if the bishop said that to me.
TokyoPlayer, I think it’s more open now than it was 25 years ago, but my perspective is also far different as someone who has always lived in places not predominantly Mormon, which I suspect also forces the community to be more open to outside ideas. It’s also true that while I have had interesting and wonderful conversations about faith and so on with members (I actually learned about the Mountain Meadows Massacre from another believing Mormon), and sometimes even in church lessons (and I taught Sunday School for several yeasr and tried to insert some thinking and analyzing into it), I’ve found I have to know someone pretty well before I can feel comfortable with displaying some of my opinions, and there are a lot of people I would never talk to about things like this. It’s also true that my husband’s Lutheran Sunday School class is, as I’ve said before in this thread, way way way WAY more intellectual about religion, which I love, and I don’t feel that need is always met by the LDS church. But then again, I find my midwestern Lutheran mother-in-law (whom in general I adore and love and think is awesome and a lovely human being) in many ways much more judgmental and un-intellectual in terms of religion than most of the California LDS I know. So I think mileage varies, a lot.
Askance, okay, but I’ve been in at least seven different wards in my life and I’ve never had to do that. (And I don’t even understand how that would work – do your friends’ wards not have anyone that has income streams not described by a formal pay stub?) The bishop always seems to take my word for it that I’m paying a full tithe or not. Of course, I’ve never tried to give him $10 and tell him it’s a full tithe; I don’t really know what happens in that case. And I’ve always told him when it’s not.
**raspberry hunter ** thank you. I grew up in south eastern Idaho which just as well be northern Utah. As for the Mountain Meadows Massacre it’s family history as my great great great uncle Isacc C. Haight gave the order to attack. It’s amazing how fast you can get your elderly aunts off your back about helping with genealogical research after you find the family mass murder.
Even when I was a TMB (true believing Mormon), the Mountain Meadows Massacre wasn’t that big of a deal for me. It doesn’t seem to have been planned by the church itself.
Now, I’d be really impressed if active Mormons were discussing Joseph Smith’s connections with the occult. That would be surprising.
Well, it doesn’t seemed to have been deliberately planned by Brigham Young himself. But Brigham’s doctrines of Blood Atonement, non-cooperation with the US government, and vengeance of the blood of Joseph, Hyrum, and Parley created an atmosphere of bloodlust in southern Utah. And no one doubts that Brigham was involved in the cover-up.
George A Smith was an Apostle. He toured southern Utah just ahead of the Fancher party to deliberately provoke the Mormons and the Paiutes. John D Lee was executed for the Massacre, and he thought he was obeying direct orders from Smith, who (Lee thought) was acting on orders from Brigham Young, who was acting on orders from God.
Isaac Haight, who ordered the slaughter, was the Stake President (similar to a bishop in Catholicism) and second in command of the militia. Both of those positions were appointed by revelation through Brigham. Yup, God sure knows how to choose good ecclesiatical leaders.
But what I find most fascinating is how easy it was to convince the local congregations to pull the trigger. Whether the orders really came from Salt Lake or not, the murderers thought they were doing God’s work while they killed 120 men, women, and children. It is disturbing that Smith, Haight, and Lee were able to persuade so many people that God wanted them to shoot travelers in the head point-blank.
Sorry for the hijack. I’m halfway through reading *Blood of the Prophets *by Will Bagley, so this stuff is fresh on my mind. I tend to get a bit obsessed.
Back to the topic of the thread, churches and social groups are great but one should be extremely cautious before joining an organization that demands absolute obedience to men who pretend to speak for God.
Honestly, these strike me as terrible reasons to join a religion.
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You’re not going to find “instant friends”. You’re going to find a community - a group of people who have banded together. When you need help, some or all may help you. But what happens when you disagree with someone? Ostracism, cliques, taking sides, all these things happen within religious communities just like everywhere else.
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A “special secret co-ed fraternity” does sound really cool, when you’re 14. You need to look at this like an adult. The vast majority of secret fraternities are seriously messed up, full of hazing, brainwashing, bullying, etc.
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Who are these people that are actively recruiting you? Close friends? If not, how can they know you well enough to care about you enough to make their recruiting a reflection of your worth?
I think you’re setting yourself up as a great victim for a cult. I recommend a neutral spiritual advisor to help you on your search. At the very least, talk to a lot of different officiants of a lot of different religions.
You might be interested in reading a recent thread started by someone who left the Mormon church. Know what you’re getting into before you begin.
PS: Just noticed that the OP of the linked thread is also participating in this one.
Nope, have to say I’ve never really discussed that one with an active Mormon (although I think it was an active Mormon, probably the same one, who mentioned salamanders to me – he, while a TMB, is definitely not your average LDS – in addition to knowing all this stuff he is also one of the smartest people I know, which is saying a lot).
On the other hand, I’ve also never discussed things like the Gospel of Thomas, and how different it is from (say) John and whether Christianity would be very different had different books been canon, with an active Christian of any denomination except my husband (who, although much less agnostic than I, has very similar attitudes and doesn’t mind hypotheticals).
I find that I have to know someone very well before discussing things that might impinge very strongly on his or her belief system, and usually I find before that point that I… maybe don’t want to discuss the things after all. Same goes for politics as for religion 
Rhodes, I enjoyed your hijack. I didn’t really know that much about it. I may have to check out that book.
I am amazed at the number of whooshes in this thread.
So why are Mormons disliked if they are the majority?
Is it resentment and envy, or does the Mormon Majority suddenly cop an attitude of how high and mighty?
Thant’s a whoosh, right?