# I got deuced **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204 "2006-03-20T22:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/41 "2006-03-22T17:27:23Z")
And this proves the wisdom of the cliche, never write anything in an email or post anything on the internet that you wouldn’t want to see printed on the front page of the New York Times. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/42 "2006-03-22T20:29:02Z")
**Knowed out** , that sounds just terrible. Do you think it was more the fact that you were using your work computer, or that you didn’t remain completely anonymous, that led to your termination? How long were you there? Do you have anyone there who would go to bat for you either in restoring your job there, or in helping you get a new one? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/43 "2006-03-22T21:03:26Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Maybe in Canada, but most states are employment at will jurisictions. That means you can be fired for almost any reason or in fact no reason at all. A lot of employers will not give a reason for the firing because then it is harder for the employee to claim they were fired for an improper reason, like gender, ethnicity or disability etc. That probably is the difference. I know in Alberta (I don’t know about the rest of Canada) you _can_ be fired for any reason or no reason, but I’m pretty sure the employer has to at least pretend he has a valid reason, complete with written documentation that you were warned to change your behaviour. You can make a case for wrongful dismissal regardless of what the reason is; it’ll just get chucked out of court if you have no leg to stand on. I don’t know if you’d _win_ a case of wrongful dismissal if you posted at home, but I’d sure give it a try. Posting sensitive stuff rather than just badmouthing the company, though, that probably is over the line here, too, regardless of how you do it. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/44 "2006-03-22T23:12:27Z")
By the way, is North Kakkalakee in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/45 "2006-03-22T23:56:55Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > That probably is the difference. I know in Alberta (I don’t know about the rest of Canada) you _can_ be fired for any reason or no reason, but I’m pretty sure the employer has to at least pretend he has a valid reason, complete with written documentation that you were warned to change your behaviour. Actually, this isn’t particularly true. If it’s within the first 3 months of employment, the employer can fire the employee with no reason, whatsoever. After 3 months, there is a mandated procedure that must be followed involving writing the employee up at least twice (it may be 3 times) and giving them an opportunity to improve or rectify the situation. Additionally, all verbal warnings have to be kept track of. Finally, there are many things that a person cannot be fired for. Oddly enough “Innocent Incompetence” is one of them - even if you’re a dumb ass, provided you’re not purposefully trying to screw your employer over, it’s not a valid reason to fire you. That is to say, the employer would lose a wrongful dismissal suit. Go figure. Obviously, these guidelines don’t apply to people in temporary positions, seasonal work, term commitments, etc. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/46 "2006-03-23T03:10:40Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Parents can use the internet? :eek: Yeah, but not very well. Just now I tried to post using my toaster oven. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/47 "2006-03-23T07:46:34Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Actually, this isn’t particularly true. At least in Alberta an employer can fire you at anytime for no reason at all. All he has to do is pay you for the privilage. [Alberta employment standards](http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmentstandards/about/termination.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/48 "2006-03-23T12:29:10Z")
Sorry about you losing your job, **Knowed Out**. But, yeah, you know… > [@Knowed Out](#): > > You are being watched and monitored every time you use a computer. The person providing the monitoring was you. I’m one of the many dopers, I’m sure, who have written a rant about their work and then had a dose of good sense just before posting. Often just writing it is therapy enough. You don’t need to share it with all humankind. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/49 "2006-03-23T16:11:59Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > If it’s within the first 3 months of employment, the employer can fire the employee with no reason, whatsoever. > > After 3 months, there is a mandated procedure that must be followed. . . . Are you describing the law in a particular state or province? As far as I know, while it is typical of large companies to create such procedure internally (to keep the company from getting sued when some middle manager goes off on a rampage), there are no laws that require that. “At will” means “at will” in a very literal sense. As long as one is not fired for being the “wrong” race, sex, religion, or physical capabilities or having the “wrong” national origin, no law determines the rules under which one may be fired. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/50 "2006-03-23T20:57:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Are you describing the law in a particular state or province? As far as I know, while it is typical of large companies to create such procedure internally (to keep the company from getting sued when some middle manager goes off on a rampage), there are no laws that require that. > > “At will” means “at will” in a very literal sense. As long as one is not fired for being the “wrong” race, sex, religion, or physical capabilities or having the “wrong” national origin, no law determines the rules under which one may be fired. Alberta (and Canada, I believe). Unless you’re firing an employee for cause, you either have to document the shit out of it, or (as Uzi very aptly pointed out) pay them out. I’m under the impression that this does not qualify as “at will” in the US sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/51 "2006-03-23T21:02:31Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I’m under the impression that this does not qualify as “at will” in the US sense of the word. Actually I just read what I wrote and now I have a question about “at will” employment. I always assumed that “at will” meant that you could walk into work and your boss could say “Get out and don’t let the door hit you on the way out” and that was the end of it. Assuming it’s not for cause, do they in fact have to pay you severance? 'Cus if so, I’ve been totally confused about this for a long, long time. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/52 "2006-03-23T21:37:58Z")
I’m a little confused about it myself, at this point. I know that most employers will indeed document the shit out of any potential firing after the first three month probationary period, but I don’t know if that is simply to cover their asses, or if it is mandated in some way. I also know that I’ve heard managers complaining about how hard it is to get rid of people here, but again, that could be from company policies rather than government legislation. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/53 "2006-03-23T22:38:38Z")
We can fire people pretty much for any, or no, reason, but if we don’t document the hell out of it and demonstrate that they were at fault, we have to pay unemployment claims. If we do document the hell out of it, we might still lose–and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/54 "2006-03-24T04:41:12Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > We can fire people pretty much for any, or no, reason, but if we don’t document the hell out of it and demonstrate that they were at fault, we have to pay unemployment claims. > > If we do document the hell out of it, we might still lose–and rightly so. So you have to pay EI, but not severance? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/55 "2006-03-24T13:55:21Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > So you have to pay EI, but not severance? Right. We’ve never had to pay severance for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/56 "2006-03-24T15:36:55Z")
I’m even more confused now; in Canada, Employment Insurance is a government-run programme that is funded entirely by employee and employer contributions to a large (actually, incredibly huge) pool of funds. As far as I know, the individual employers have no say in who collects and who doesn’t; that is entirely decided by the gov’t agency running this fund. You apply to the gov’t, they turn you down if you left your job for any reason other than mat leave or lay-off, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/57 "2006-03-24T15:59:46Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I’m even more confused now; in Canada, Employment Insurance is a government-run programme that is funded entirely by employee and employer contributions to a large (actually, incredibly huge) pool of funds. As far as I know, the individual employers have no say in who collects and who doesn’t; that is entirely decided by the gov’t agency running this fund. You apply to the gov’t, they turn you down if you left your job for any reason other than mat leave or lay-off, end of story. In Ohio (I can’t speak for any other state), when someone applies for unemployment, the Bureau sends the employer a notice looking for termination details. If the employee quit, no benefits, unless she can prove she quit for cause. If the employee was fired for certain reasons, she won’t receive benefits, usually. For example, if she came to work drunk, or lied on her resume, or stabbed someone in the restroom, or stole from the company, or attempted to defraud the company. If the company can show that she was fired for other reasons, but that she was in control of her behavior and had ample opportunity to resolve the issues, the Bureau will sometimes say that she was fired for cause and she isn’t eligible for benefits. This doesn’t happen very often where I work. Most of our employees who end up terminated are the ones who only randomly show up for work. Not showing up, being late, etc. is not considered cause for firing. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/58 "2006-03-24T18:42:34Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > You apply to the gov’t, they turn you down if you left your job for any reason other than mat leave or lay-off, end of story. If you were fired without cause, if your contract wasn’t extended, or if your position was abolished, you can also get EI. In fact, I thought you could get EI if you were fired _WITH_ cause. Maybe not - I’ve never applied. Slightly on topic did you here about [Jim Whitehouse](http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2006/03/24/1503123-sun.html)? He’s a broker in Calgary that was fired after being caught with alcohol, crack and a hooker in his Downtown Calgary office. He’s suing for wrongful dismissal claiming that none of the above infractions were mentioned in the employee handbook, so he wasn’t aware they were against the rules… :wally ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/59 "2006-03-25T03:56:15Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > \Slightly on topic did you here about [Jim Whitehouse](http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2006/03/24/1503123-sun.html)? > > He’s a broker in Calgary that was fired after being caught with alcohol, crack and a hooker in his Downtown Calgary office. > > He’s suing for wrongful dismissal claiming that none of the above infractions were mentioned in the employee handbook, so he wasn’t aware they were against the rules… > > :wally Wow - I’ll give him full credit for having one huge set of balls. I don’t suppose his handbook says he can’t kill his boss either, so maybe he should give that a go. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204/60 "2006-03-25T05:08:12Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > Wow - I’ll give him full credit for having one huge set of balls. I don’t suppose his handbook says he can’t kill his boss either, so maybe he should give that a go. Personally, I think he should just climb up on the table in the middle of the next board meeting and lay a big fat turd. I can be almost _POSITIVE_ that’s not in the handbook… 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-got-deuced/349204.md?page=2)