# I had a horrible thought about Harry Potter **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965 "2004-06-12T13:37:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/161 "2004-06-20T19:43:08Z")
It occured to me that Snape’s boggart could be himself. But I haven’t thought it through yet. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/162 "2004-06-20T21:27:27Z")
> [@nocturnal\_tick](#): > > Maybe becuase you have to have a good memory, not just some memory you take pleasure from but something wholesome and pure. Harry casts a Patronus (for the exam guy) by imagining Umbridge getting fired. That’s taking pleasure from another’s misfortune. (Altho it’s funny as hell 🙂 ) So it would seem that any happy memory or mental image will work. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/163 "2004-06-20T21:43:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > About those Patronus Charms… > > [deletia] > > And while we’re on the topic, does the Patronus do anything else? It would seem odd to have a dedicated high-level spell just for warding off one particular kind of nasty, and we’ve seen that the Patronus can be summoned without Dementors being present. And the name also suggests a greater versatility: it acts as a patron for the summoner. Well, the Patronus is also good for scaring the sh\*t out of Draco Malfoy… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/164 "2004-06-20T23:49:14Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > It occured to me that Snape’s boggart could be himself. But I haven’t thought it through yet. Now _there’s_ a thought. As an aside on Barty Crouch - it’s important to note that the guy was a damned good actor. He managed to convince everyone at Hogwarts, even Albus Dumbledore, that he was Mad-Eye Moody, for almost an entire year. Polyjuice potion made him look like Moody, but the personality and mannerisms all had to come from him. So he was probably just playing innocent at his trial, trying to convince his dad to bend the law. And I think Aberforth was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat, but I could be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Catsmeow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Catsmeow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catsmeow)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/165 "2004-06-21T03:43:03Z")
> [@nocturnal\_tick](#): > > I think Snape’s boggart will be his father, for some reason. We understand that Snape had a rotten childhood and maybe it is something from his childhood that is his greatest fear. Just going to throw this out here…only just came to mind and I haven’t actually thought it through all the way. What if **Snape** is related to Voldemort…perhaps his son. Voldie is around the same age as Hagrid (I’m guessing late 50’s early 60’s or so?) and Snape is 35 or 36 (from MuggleNet) We don’t actually see who Snape’s father is and it’s possible that the last name “Snape” comes from his mother’s side…perhaps Mother Snape didn’t take the Riddle last name thinking it was tainted from being associated with Muggles. Like I said, just tossing this one out there. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/166 "2004-06-21T04:29:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A person has no control either over the shape of their Patronus, nor what animal they turn into should they become an Animagus, and Rowling has hinted that these are always the same animal. There is also a hint of that fact when Lupin asks Harry at the beginning of the Order of the Phoenix (to reassure Moody who is wary of impostors): “Harry, what is the shape of your Patronus?” If the Patronus took on a different shape every time then Lupin wouldn’t use that question to identify the real Harry. Lamia, you bring up an interesting issue in re Snape. From our point of view, Snape is unjustly favouring the Slytherins every chance he can, but from Snape’s point of view, it would look like Harry Potter is continuously breaking school rules, and yet is still Dumbledore’s favorite, famous and popular. I hope that in the next books we will see more reconciliation between the schools, as the sorting hat is recommending. It always seems that it’s the rest of Hogwarts against the Slytherins. And of the students that break into the Department of Mysteries on the Rescue Mission, only one (Luna) is a non-Gryffindor. nocturnal\_tick, as you say, J. K. Rowling’s name are often related to the personality of the character, so Luna’s last name could be another clue that she will be Harry’s girlfriend. Catsmeow, Snape son of Voldemort? I don’t think so. At the end of Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore tells Harry (in chapter eighteen) > [@](#): > > You can speak Parseltongue … because Lord Voldemort - who _is_ the last remaining ancestor (_sic_) of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue. Unless I’m much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. The word “ancestor”, which is the way it appears in the American edition at least, has got to be an error missed by the author and the editor, and Voldemort is the last remaining _descendent_ of Salazar Slytherin. I’ve been thumbing through Chamber of Secrets, to try to answer my own previous question > [@](#): > > J. K. Rowling has said that a “small detail” in book two will prove to be very significant in book six. and here’s what I’ve come up with so far. Also in chapter eighteen of Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore tells Harry “Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled _that_ out of the hat, Harry”. (The sorting hat, Godric Gryffindor’s old wizard hat, has given a sword to Harry to help kill the basilisk.) I think this might be the small detail that will prove to be significant in book six. Harry must be a (probably _the only_) living descendent of school founder Godric Gryffindor. Or carrying the idea one step further - in book five J. K. Rowling shows that most pureblood wizard families are related to one another. Could it even be that Harry Potter is a living descendent of _all four_ school founders - Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff? That his true destiny is to overcome the divisions between the four schools at Hogwarts (in addition to conquering Voldemort and discrediting once and for ever the pureblood prejudice)? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/167 "2004-06-21T04:32:09Z")
That’s an interesting possibility, but I really don’t think Rowling will pull a “villain is secretly a close relative of another major character” twist. It’s just too _Star Wars_, and I think she’s already indicated she’s not going to go that route. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/168 "2004-06-21T04:32:36Z")
Another question - on the back of the American hardcover dust jacket of “Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix”, who do we see on the drawing? I recognize Tonks and Moody. Standing behind them must be Lupin? (older than I would have picture him). To the left, appearing in a mirror or a painting - Sirius Black? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/169 "2004-06-21T04:35:10Z")
Lamia - was that to me or to Catsmeow? Chronos - Rereading what you said and I wrote, maybe I misread you. Were you saying that for the Animagus wizard producing a Patronus, the animal that the wizard turns into as an Animagus would also be the shape taken by the wizard’s Patronus? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/170 "2004-06-21T04:37:47Z")
One last thing - what I said above was stupid. If Voldemort is the last remaining descendent of Slytherin, then obviously Harry Potter can’t be a descendent of Slyterin. Duh! On the other hand Voldemort transferred part of his powers to Harry (dixit Dumbledore) so maybe Harry reunites in some other way elements of all four school founders. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/171 "2004-06-21T05:36:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > About those Patronus Charms… \ And while we’re on the topic, does the Patronus do anything else? It would seem odd to have a dedicated high-level spell just for warding off one particular kind of nasty, and we’ve seen that the Patronus can be summoned without Dementors being present. And the name also suggests a greater versatility: it acts as a patron for the summoner. In GoF, Dumbledore summons Hagrid to the site of Bartemius Crouch the Elder’s disappearance by shooting a white shape, vageuly reminiscent of an elaborately formed bird. Ever since I read this scene, I’ve believed that Dmbledore’s Patronus (a phoenix, btw) can be used for quickly sending messages over at least short distances. **Arnold** , I’ve just reviewed the dust jacket on my copy. I’m calling that other figure as Sirius standing in a doorway. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/172 "2004-06-21T06:20:47Z")
> [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > Lamia, you bring up an interesting issue in re Snape. From our point of view, Snape is unjustly favouring the Slytherins every chance he can, but from Snape’s point of view, it would look like Harry Potter is continuously breaking school rules, and yet is still Dumbledore’s favorite, famous and popular. Worse than that, in Book One when Slytherin was the clear winner of the House Cup, Dumbledore gave Gryffindor a bunch of points at the last minute so they could take the prize instead! That always struck me as hugely unfair to the Slytherin kids. Sure, Gryffindor had been docked points unfairly, and Harry and Co.'s deeds really were worthy of recognition. But it seems needlessly humiliating to let the Slytherins go to the banquet expecting the Cup, sit there among the green-and-silver decorations eagerly awaiting the presentation of their prize, and then announce at the last possible second that they were getting zip. The bit where all the Slytherin banners magically transform to Gryffindor ones seemed like a big slap in the face to me. I’d be shocked if a real-life administrator pulled something like that with a group of students. It’s always struck me as very bad behavior on Dumbledore’s part. A more diplomatic thing to have done would be to grant Gryffindor enough points to tie with Slytherin so they could share the Cup. But the way things went down, it must have seemed to Snape and the Slytherin kids that no matter how much they accomplished, Harry Potter and the rest of Gryffindor would always be the heroes. So I think it would be understandable for Snape to want to try to show favor to Slytherin to make up for the way they’re treated by the rest of the school, although the way he goes about it is more likely to inspire resentment from other students. > [@](#): > > - > > I hope that in the next books we will see more reconciliation between the schools, as the sorting hat is recommending. It always seems that it’s the rest of Hogwarts against the Slytherins. And of the students that break into the Department of Mysteries on the Rescue Mission, only one (Luna) is a non-Gryffindor. \*I think all the houses will have to come together the fight The Big V and his minions. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out. > [@](#): > > - > > Lamia - was that to me or to Catsmeow? \*Whoops, sorry, it was to **Catsmeow**. Your post hadn’t shown up yet when I started writing. I don’t think Voldy will turn out to have any children or other living relatives. He killed all the family we’ve been told about thus far, and I doubt Rowling will give him a long-lost brother or something at the 11th hour. ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/173 "2004-06-21T12:17:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Worse than that, in Book One when Slytherin was the clear winner of the House Cup, Dumbledore gave Gryffindor a bunch of points at the last minute so they could take the prize instead! That always struck me as hugely unfair to the Slytherin kids. Sure, Gryffindor had been docked points unfairly, and Harry and Co.'s deeds really were worthy of recognition. But it seems needlessly humiliating to let the Slytherins go to the banquet expecting the Cup, sit there among the green-and-silver decorations eagerly awaiting the presentation of their prize, and then announce at the last possible second that they were getting zip. The bit where all the Slytherin banners magically transform to Gryffindor ones seemed like a big slap in the face to me. I agree that the way that it was done was poor on the part of Dumbledore, but didn’t Gryffindor deserve it? All throughout the books it is every house but Slytherin that gets the points taken unfairly, partly due to the Slytherins themselves, (Inquisitorial Squad etc.). It could be that the banquet was the first chance to award the points, and that it also made a decent lesson for the Slytherins to learn, that cheating gets you nowhere. You have to admit though that Rowling has never shown a decent Slytherin, nor has Malfoy learned to play fair to win in the end. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/174 "2004-06-21T16:43:11Z")
Considering how much Snape turns a blind eye to the Slytherin hijinks, I’m not surprised Dumbledore set things right. Although I do see your point, **Lamia** , and perhaps it would have been better if McGonagal had awarded those points. Who do you see playing Umbridge? I can see Louise Fletcher (Kai Wynn of DS9) because she plays nasty so sweetly you just want to slap her, but I imagine a dumpy, short actress, and I think Fletcher is too tall. _Hem hem hem_. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/175 "2004-06-21T17:09:54Z")
> [@nocturnal\_tick](#): > > I agree that the way that it was done was poor on the part of Dumbledore, but didn’t Gryffindor deserve it? All throughout the books it is every house but Slytherin that gets the points taken unfairly, partly due to the Slytherins themselves, (Inquisitorial Squad etc.). That’s mostly in Book Five though, I’m talking about Book One. Gryffindor was getting the shaft, but I don’t think the other Houses were being treated unfairly then. I don’t have access to the books now, but I remember that Ravenclaw was second to Slytherin when it came to points, and IIRC the score was fairly close between the two. (I can see Ravenclaws being ticked about the sudden turn of events too, and feeling that if the prize wasn’t going to Slytherin it was rightfully theirs as official #2.) Gryffindor did deserve the House Cup more, and certainly didn’t deserve to be dead last in terms of points, but sharing the prize between Slytherin and Gryffindor would have been a more diplomatic suggestion for Dumbledore to make. > [@](#): > > - > > It could be that the banquet was the first chance to award the points, and that it also made a decent lesson for the Slytherins to learn, that cheating gets you nowhere. \*I really can’t remember – did Slytherins get points by cheating in Book One? I know Snape was handing 'em out like candy, but I can’t recall any real dirty tricks to get points by the Slytherin students. I think there was some dishonesty to cause points to be docked from Gryffindor, though. > [@](#): > > - > > You have to admit though that Rowling has never shown a decent Slytherin, nor has Malfoy learned to play fair to win in the end. \*Well, she hasn’t shown us many Slytherins at all except for Malfoy and his inner circle (and Snape himself, of course). Malfoy is sort of the Slytherin Harry, or perhaps the anti-Harry, and for good or ill it seems that each House’s reputation at the school is dependant upon the reputations of these two boys. ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/176 "2004-06-21T17:12:44Z")
There’s just a couple of quotes I found in **Chamber of Secrets** that I want to add to clear things up: > [@](#): > > _from p.61:_ > Last term, Harry and Ron had helped Gryffindor win the House Championship, beating Slytherin for the first time in seven years. So really Slytherin hadn’t really been so hard-up in the past. While the whole “pulling it from underneath them” scene was a bit harsh, it wasn’t as much of a tragic loss as you may have been led to believe. > [@](#): > > _from p.88:_ > Gettin’ very difficult ter find anyone fer the Dark Arts job. \ No-one’s lasted long fer a while now. Who were the previous DaDa teachers before Harry’s first year? Why has the positions seemed to be cursed and why has no-one lasted? It makes for a possible storyline for sure. > [@](#): > > _from p.89:_ > Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn’t married Muggles we’d’ve died out. There is a part of the book where it describes a Squib as the opposite of a witch or wizard in a Muggle family. Which gets me to thinking; what if all these kids, like Hermoine, were made to be witches rather than it coming naturally to them. What if the future books go onto talking about how the wizard families were starting to die out and so they had to become involved with Muggles to survive. It could open up a whole can of worms to do with the Wizard/Muggle rift. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/177 "2004-06-21T17:26:12Z")
> [@nocturnal\_tick](#): > > It could be that the banquet was the first chance to award the points, and that it also made a decent lesson for the Slytherins to learn, that cheating gets you nowhere. Harry spent several days in the Hospital Wing after his battle with Quirrell/Voldemort and before the end-of-term Feast. Dumbledore could certainly have handled this administrative chore during those days. I think Rowling was just trying to add a bit of schadenfreud against Draco to cap off the happy ending in her first novel. Dumbledore should be ashamed to have alowed himself to be used in this manner. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/178 "2004-06-22T17:53:48Z")
> [@nocturnal\_tick](#): > > Also I think those that want to should read this: > > [Prisoner of Azkaban in 15 minutes](http://www.livejournal.com/community/m15m/2237.html?thread=39101) THIS WAS BRILLIANT!! I’m posting the link to my sci-fi group’s e-mail. Patty ---
**Author:** ![karomon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@karomon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/karomon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/179 "2004-06-22T22:04:13Z")
In PoA, when Harry is attacked by a dementor at the quidditch match against Hufflepuff, he hears his mother’s screams (“Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!”) and someone’s reply - “Stand aside, you silly girl … stand aside, now…”. Later on, in the Shrieking Shack, Snape yells at Hermionie - “BE QUIET, YOU STUPID GIRL!”, then tells Potter to “get out of the way”. Do these sound at all similar to anyone else? Also, we never get to see anyone in Harry’s visions, and while we know that the female voice is Lily’s because we are told so, it’s never really stated that the other voice belongs to Voldemort - it’s just sort of implied. The same is true of the flashback scene in the movie. There has GOT to be a reason Rowling is being so sparse with the details, and I think it’s that Snape is there, either by himself or with Voldemort. My feeling is, Harry wasn’t the one who almost killed Voldemort. I think Snape lost his cool or was working the anti-V angle to begin with, and he had something to do with you-know-who going down. Maybe he didn’t want Lily dead for some reason and tried to convince her that he could get V to let her live if she would just give up the kid, but of course she wouldn’t do that, and now Snape resents Harry for it. ---
**Author:** ![Delly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Delly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965/180 "2004-06-22T23:49:47Z")
[spoiler] From reading other peoples threads, Ive thought of an off the wall theory. Ok everyone thinks that James Potter and Severus Snape were arch enemies, and yes we know thats true of them while they were at Hogwarts, but whats to say that they made up in later life? And then as Karomon suggests, Snape is present when Voldemort attacks the Potters. But instead of being on Voldemorts side, maybe he was on Lillys side (its been suggested he had a thing for her) and when we hear the voice saying get out of the way, its him telling Lily to make a run for it with Harry. Maybe he was trying to protect them. Now for the reason as to why Snape cant stand the sight of Harry… Well maybe its because he feels he has left Lily down, and he hates the fact that Lily died and that Harry lived. But like I said, its completely off the wall. [/spoiler] Just wanted to add… I dont believe any of this is true for a second, I just thought it as I read some of the posts in this thread. Theres a lot of information that would point to it being incorrect eg. Sirius, surely wouldnt hate Snape so much if he knew James had become friendly with him… and also, surely Harry would recognise it if it was Snape talking in his visions [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-a-horrible-thought-about-harry-potter/249965.md?page=10)