# I had my boy scout moment today! (or: how to deal with aggressive drunks) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 11, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552 "2012-02-11T21:46:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/21 "2012-02-13T21:54:08Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Right, but there’s a very big difference between stopping a thief and intervening in an assault. We don’t know for sure that the store clerks would not have intervened had the situation become physical. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/22 "2012-02-13T22:25:23Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > What kinda pissed me off, was that when I returned to the checkout counter, there was three (!) store employees standing there. Big strong boys, in their twenties. Between 15-25cm (6-10") taller than me, definitely in better shape. Did those guys back me up? Nope. Did they even walk up to the situation to sorta give me some sort of mental backup? Nope. They were just standing there, gawking, some 10m away. Sissies. Pissed me off, did it. Did I say “sissies”? I did, but not to their faces. But I was definitely not impressed. I’m not suprised. I once ran past three grown men to stop some neanderthal from beating up his girlfriend in a parking lot as they watched. After it was all over I was more upset with these men, than the idiot beating the shit out of his girlfriend. Good on you for doing something. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/23 "2012-02-14T03:47:08Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > That might be, but I doubt it. We, on our side of the pond, are noticeably less paranoid about liability and legal action than what y’all on the west side of the pond are. So I rather doubt that this has at all been an issue during whatever training low-wage youngsters working afternoons and evenings in a large mall store have received. Yeah, as **Really Not All That Bright** says, I was in the UK. Cornmarket Street in Oxford to be precise, for a very well-known chain that sells mobiles, but used to specialise in car phones if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/24 "2012-02-14T05:11:27Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > I’m not suprised. I once ran past three grown men to stop some neanderthal from beating up his girlfriend in a parking lot as they watched. After it was all over I was more upset with these men, than the idiot beating the shit out of his girlfriend. > > Good on you for doing something. Intervening in a public display of domestic violence can often end up with the interloper fighting off BOTH people. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/25 "2012-02-14T06:44:01Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Yeah, as **Really Not All That Bright** says, I was in the UK. Ah, OK, sorry for the misunderstanding 🙂 And terribly sorry for assuming you were 'merican 😉 [QUOTE=YogSosoth] imagine the Youtube video if you had just tackled him! You could have been famous! Kardashian famous! [/QUOTE] Yeah, sure. After my hospitalization was over, perhaps 😉 But seriously, the last thing those children needed in their fright was two adults fighting on the ground before them. I have problems imagining a more efficient way of making their situation even worse and more frightening. Regardless of the fact that if the situation were to become physical, I definitely would have been on the losing side. [QUOTE=rachelellogram] Intervening in a public display of domestic violence can often end up with the interloper fighting off BOTH people. [/QUOTE] Sure, but still, what if there are innocent children there? Are you going to just stand there? I pulled a stunt like that when I was in my 20s: me and a couple of friends were able to stop a public display of domestic violence with children present. At that time, we outnumbered the… “conflictees”(sp), but I guess the most important factor was that also then we never showed any signs of aggression. Posture, voice mode, everything we could think of was deliberately non-provoking and soothing. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/26 "2012-02-14T07:09:06Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Intervening in a public display of domestic violence can often end up with the interloper fighting off BOTH people. This. Absolutely this. I’d still probably do something, but I’m stupid that way. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/27 "2012-02-14T07:10:46Z")
Did you ever find out why the drunk was stalking her (the woman with the kids)? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/28 "2012-02-14T08:17:57Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Ah, OK, sorry for the misunderstanding 🙂 And terribly sorry for assuming you were 'merican 😉 I’ve been insulted many times on the SDMB but that, sir… :eek: 😉 In seriousness though, imagine my outrage that corporate policy trumped common decency. There was me, and another passer-by, and the security guard from Boots next door, all sprawled on the floor holding this guy down. And the people we were helping were just standing there watching. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/29 "2012-02-14T08:34:36Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Sure, but still, what if there are innocent children there? As someone who once \*was \*one of those innocent children, I knew from a very young age that someone breaking up a fight between my parents was nothing but idle fantasy. Moreover, anyone who attempted such a thing would have been shunned by my mother out of necessity. If she’d stood up for herself, she would have gotten it twice as bad at home later. Think about it. A guy who is so willfully blind and ethically bankrupt as to assault his wife in front of his children \*and \*the general public is NOT going to take home any lessons from a well-meaning stranger. Or do you think these public abusers suddenly stop acting like assholes behind closed doors, merely at your behest? Real-life example: when I was 8 or 9, me and a neighborhood friend played keep-away with my younger sister’s shoe for a few minutes in the front yard. My dad noticed, charged outside, and began screaming drunkenly at me and my friend. My friend started crying, ran home, and told her mother. My dad lumbered back to his easy chair and resumed drinking, and me and my sister began playing quietly (and cooperatively, now) in the yard. That would have been that, until my friend’s mom came back, pounded on the door, and berated my dad for having the gall to yell like that, not only at \*her \*kid but at \*his own \*kid. After she left, my dad took us inside, where I was bellowed at for 15 solid minutes and beaten with a belt. Any attempt to publicly shame him ended up \*much \*worse for my mom and us kids. Do people who’ve never lived with an abusive parent not know these things? Anyway, given this information, what should you do? > [@Norse](#): > > just stand there? No, you should get to a safe place and call 911, the same as I would do for any assault I just witnessed. My dad always calmed down for at least a week (out of fear, presumably) after the cops made a visit to our home. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/30 "2012-02-14T08:51:11Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Real-life example: when I was 8 or 9, me and a neighborhood friend played keep-away with my younger sister’s shoe for a few minutes in the front yard. My dad noticed, charged outside, and began screaming drunkenly at me and my friend. My friend started crying, ran home, and told her mother. My dad lumbered back to his easy chair and resumed drinking, and me and my sister began playing quietly (and cooperatively, now) in the yard. > > That would have been that, until my friend’s mom came back, pounded on the door, and berated my dad for having the gall to yell like that, not only at \*her \*kid but at \*his own \*kid. After she left, my dad took us inside, where I was bellowed at for 15 solid minutes and beaten with a belt. > > Any attempt to publicly shame him ended up \*much \*worse for my mom and us kids. Do people who’ve never lived with an abusive parent not know these things? > > Anyway, given this information, what should you do? The description you’re giving of the situation is _not_ what I would have done, nor what I did in those two situations I described. Your friends’ mom’s actions were not the kind of non-provoking behavior I’m advocating, quite on the contrary. If it were an acute situation, I would try to stop the ongoing violence by non-confrontational and friendly, buddy-like behavior as described upthread. If I thought that what I observed was an example of ongoing domestic violence, I would contact the proper authorities like police and/or child care institutions _after the acute situation was defused_. I would never approach a domestic tyrant in retrospect and try to teach him about his wrongdoings, because I believe that there would be a high probability for a reaction like the one you’re describing. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/31 "2012-02-14T17:22:14Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Any attempt to publicly shame him ended up \*much \*worse for my mom and us kids. Do people who’ve never lived with an abusive parent not know these things? Intellectually, maybe. Realistically, no. Abuser’s logic is not like sane logic. In the sane world, when you call someone out on their bad behavior they shape up and don’t do it again. The idea that calling them out will lead to the abuser thrashing their kids later is alien to people who haven’t lived through it. ☹ I don’t like the idea of giving an abuser a pass on their public behavior because they’re going to do worse in private, though I understand that righteous anger is not going to help. **2square4u** ’s response is good, as far as I can tell. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/32 "2012-02-14T18:19:42Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > …And I agree with identifying someone in the crowd and telling them to assist you. People need direction and leadership in scary situations, or they revert to doing what the crowd is doing. > > (all that said, good job to the OP for doing the right thing, the right way!) Agreed on both counts. There’s strength in numbers, and sometimes _you_ have to be the authority figure to confidently muster those numbers for a good cause. I was walking around in London on New Year’s Eve long ago and a guy started beating up his girlfriend across the street. Several other men and I ran over to stop him. We held him there until a police van zipped up and took him away a few minutes later. It was very satisfying to have acted on instinct and stopped a crime. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/33 "2012-02-14T18:31:28Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > What kinda pissed me off, was that when I returned to the checkout counter, there was three (!) store employees standing there. Big strong boys, in their twenties. Between 15-25cm (6-10") taller than me, definitely in better shape. Did those guys back me up? Nope. Did they even walk up to the situation to sorta give me some sort of mental backup? Nope. They were just standing there, gawking, some 10m away. Sissies. Pissed me off, did it. Did I say “sissies”? I did, but not to their faces. But I was definitely not impressed. > > ETA: The girls at the counter, though, were grateful. And I _do_ understand that a girl who’s some 150cm and 50kg doesn’t involve herself in a situation like that. Store policy probably dictates that they not get involved. While I think you personally did the right thing, the man hadn’t touched them and wasn’t brandishing a weapon. The right thing for the store employees to do was call and wait for the proper people to do their job. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/34 "2012-02-15T00:46:22Z")
> [@FlyByNight512](#): > > I don’t like the idea of giving an abuser a pass on their public behavior because they’re going to do worse in private, though I understand that righteous anger is not going to help. **2square4u** ’s response is good, as far as I can tell. What do you think? I think you should go get/call someone who is authorized to break up domestic disputes. In a bar, that’s a bouncer. At the mall, that’s security. On the street, that’s 911. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/35 "2012-02-15T06:41:36Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I think you should go get/call someone who is authorized to break up domestic disputes. In a bar, that’s a bouncer. At the mall, that’s security. On the street, that’s 911. 10-4. And what should I do if the bouncer/security/police doesn’t show up or I’m not able to reach them? Stay out of trouble and become another one of those standing there, just watching? Or just go my own way, minding my own business? ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/36 "2012-02-15T08:35:01Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > 10-4. And what should I do if the bouncer/security/police doesn’t show up or I’m not able to reach them? Stay out of trouble and become another one of those standing there, just watching? Or just go my own way, minding my own business? What would you do if you witnessed any other crime committed by a predatory, not-quite-sane individual? I’m not saying you can’t try to intervene, but I’m saying it’s more likely to cause harm than it is to be helpful. You may teach the guy that it’s not okay to hit people in public, but that’s not going to stop him from hurting people in private. Sorry to sound all hopeless and stuff, but that’s the reality of living with an abuser. There are no simple solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/37 "2012-02-15T15:12:42Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > You may teach the guy that it’s not okay to hit people in public I’m not reaching you, am I? Please re-read my previous posts. I’m not trying to teach anyone anything. I specifically won’t try to teach an adult person anything about their ways, that’s for the proper authorities to do. But I just can’t stomach the trend today of “don’t get involved, for Og’s sake”, because I strongly believe that that trend helps to build a heartless and indifferent society. I don’t want to live in a heartless and indifferent society. If I witness something acute which I can prevent there and then, I’ll still do what I think is my duty as an active member of my society. Whether that constitutes preventing drunks from harassing children, stopping violence _provided that it’s within my capabilities_, alerting the police about crime or giving wayward teenagers harassing the neighborhood a talking-to. YMMV, though. And I wonder if this is another of those of Euro/US schism, or if it’s a question of personal philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/38 "2012-02-15T17:34:16Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > But I just can’t stomach the trend today of “don’t get involved, for Og’s sake”, because I strongly believe that that trend helps to build a heartless and indifferent society. I don’t want to live in a heartless and indifferent society. If I witness something acute which I can prevent there and then, I’ll still do what I think is my duty as an active member of my society. Whether that constitutes preventing drunks from harassing children, stopping violence _provided that it’s within my capabilities_, alerting the police about crime or giving wayward teenagers harassing the neighborhood a talking-to. > > YMMV, though. And I wonder if this is another of those of Euro/US schism, or if it’s a question of personal philosophy. Sorry if I was missing the point. I’ll try to address it better now: I can’t argue with the nobility of your aim, but I think it’s hopelessly idealistic. You talk about humans as though we (as a society) are capable of overcoming centuries of evolution as a group. That just isn’t going to happen, certainly not because of one person’s efforts. That paralysis most people can’t overcome isn’t weakness; it’s in our nature, as social creatures with a strong will to live. It’s a combination of not wanting to be ostracized by the group, not wanting to be hurt or killed, and the knowledge that we can’t save people from themselves. If a woman is getting beat up by a guy but still won’t leave him, what does that say about her? The thought process is something like, “If that woman won’t stick up for herself, why should I?” There have been lots of case studies of groupthink, and I think the bystander effect is just another example of groupthink in action (inaction in action? hah). It’s just another quirk about humanity. I doubt it’s a Euro vs. US thing, I know Americans who feel similar to you. I just take a more fatalistic approach to the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/39 "2012-02-15T22:00:06Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > But I just can’t stomach the trend today of “don’t get involved, for Og’s sake”, because I strongly believe that that trend helps to build a heartless and indifferent society. I don’t want to live in a heartless and indifferent society. If I witness something acute which I can prevent there and then, I’ll still do what I think is my duty as an active member of my society. Whether that constitutes preventing drunks from harassing children, stopping violence _provided that it’s within my capabilities_, alerting the police about crime or giving wayward teenagers harassing the neighborhood a talking-to. > > YMMV, though. And I wonder if this is another of those of Euro/US schism, or if it’s a question of personal philosophy. If you want to get involved. Do it. There’s nothing wrong with it, although their are risks involved when you do depending on the situation. You can get hurt, you could end up in court etc… I.E. I wouldn’t try and stop and armed bank robber. But I would get involved when some man is beating up a woman. I couldn’t sleep with myself otherwise, I’d be morally disgusted with myself for doing nothing. So it has nothing to do with teaching an abuser a lesson. It’s so I can sleep at night. If people don’t want to get involved fine, they can deal with that. But people shouldn’t try and make it a general rule of thumb for everyone to follow. Because like you **2square4u** that’s not the type of society I want to live in. Where everyone is told to just let someone else take care of it, while some women is getting her skull bashed in. I do understand some people don’t have the means to get involved. But others do and if they feel they can take care of themselves, or feel confident enought to take the risk. These are the people I want around if my little sister is getting the shit kicked out of her and they shouldn’t be discourage from helping out. Just understand the risks in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552/40 "2012-02-16T07:15:57Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > If you want to get involved. Do it. > > There’s nothing wrong with it, although their are risks involved when you do depending on the situation. You can get hurt, you could end up in court etc… > > I.E. I wouldn’t try and stop and armed bank robber. But I would get involved when some man is beating up a woman. I couldn’t sleep with myself otherwise, I’d be morally disgusted with myself for doing nothing. So it has nothing to do with teaching an abuser a lesson. It’s so I can sleep at night. > > […] > > Just understand the risks in doing so. This. Very much this. This is exactly my thoughts on the matter as well. And then we’re back to what I tried to make the central point of my OP (except for the stealth bragging :o ): How to do it. Based on some years of volunteer work as a bouncer/guard in a venue with \>500 people, some drunk like almost only Nordic (and perhaps Russian) adult people can become at a party, I sincerely believe that posture, tone of voice and wording is central in determining how a drunk and (potentially) aggressive person reacts to intervention. Use the stereotypical “firm” and authoritarian police tone, and you have a much bigger chance of being met with aggression since Slug Brain™ immediately associates you with unwanted authority and “them”. Be friendly, defensive, polite and buddy-like, but still firm, and there’s a much bigger chance that Slug Brain™’s mind gets messed just so much by the contrast between your intervention and your tone/posture - you’re primarily behaving like one of “us” - that the situation can be defused without violence and aggression. Even if it feels wrong to be the buddy of an obnoxious Neanderthal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-my-boy-scout-moment-today-or-how-to-deal-with-aggressive-drunks/612552.md?page=3)