# I had the right to kill this man in cold blood because I didn't like his performing legal acts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883 "2010-01-29T14:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/61 "2010-01-29T18:35:30Z")
_It is not a man’s job to take life. It is our heavenly father’s."_ - Scott Roeder :rolleyes: It is, however, man’s job to give a killer life. Nice work, jury. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/62 "2010-01-29T19:00:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I assumed Kansas had the death penalty. Glad to see I was wrong. No, they do, but they don’t use it much. [http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/da/death.html](http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/da/death.html) IIRC, there hasn’t been an execution since…1976-ish, I think? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/63 "2010-01-29T19:04:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I thought I saw that it was a public defender. I sincerely doubt a public defender is some sort of crusader for the pro-life movement. He’s just doing his job. No, but he’s still working for the defendant, and not the other way around - so if Roeder told him to shut up and let him jabber, he’s got no choice. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/64 "2010-01-29T19:08:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > _It is not a man’s job to take life. It is our heavenly father’s."_ > > - Scott Roeder > > :rolleyes: This goes to prove a point I’ve made before…you just can’t teach these kind of people about irony. They’re immune to the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/65 "2010-01-29T19:12:19Z")
I’m against the death penalty, but I’m pretty sure I would make an exception for this guy. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/66 "2010-01-29T19:13:31Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > No, but he’s still working for the defendant, and not the other way around - so if Roeder told him to shut up and let him jabber, he’s got no choice. Thing is, we really don’t know what their strategy sessions, if any, were like. I wouldn’t put it past Roeder to try to game the system such that he can try to appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel. It may be that staying out of jail isn’t even the point, as far as he is concerned – the important thing is to stay up there in the public eye, so even if a judge won’t allow his _trial_ to be an abortion debate, the media coverage of it will be. 'Course, that’s just as speculative as the notion of Roeder telling his P.D. to shut up and let him jabber. > [@Oregon sunshine](#): > > I’m against the death penalty, but I’m pretty sure I would make an exception for this guy. Not me. There’s not a whole lot of point in being against the death penalty if you’re going to go making exceptions for people. I’m just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/67 "2010-01-29T19:20:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What not quite as sanguine as **Hamlet** that we’ve heard the last on that jury instruction, though. It’s very surprising to me that Roeder’s lawyer let him get on the stand and testify that did all that stuff without being sure he’d get in some little trinket of evidence they could hang imminent threat on and thereby demand their jury instruction. I’m not sure that trinket exists. Unless he can show the Doc was about to perform an abortion, there is no imminent threat. Also think it might be possible to argue that even if he was about to perform an abortion, there is no “person” at risk of “unlawful force” within the meaning of the statute **Rhythmdvl.** cited, read in conjunction with [21-3211](http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatute.do): - 21-3211. Use of force in defense of a person; no duty to retreat. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. I don’t think the plain meaning of person includes “fetus who might become a person at some future time”. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/68 "2010-01-29T19:30:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What not quite as sanguine as **Hamlet** that we’ve heard the last on that jury instruction, though. It’s very surprising to me that Roeder’s lawyer let him get on the stand and testify that did all that stuff without being sure he’d get in some little trinket of evidence they could hang imminent threat on and thereby demand their jury instruction. Well, that decision is ultimately Roeder’s, isn’t it? Maybe his lawyer didn’t want him up there, but acquiesced to the client’s wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/69 "2010-01-29T19:34:30Z")
I am so doing my Happy Dance. My message to the anti-abortion people is: Abortion is legal. If you don’t like that fact, go to Washington and try to change it. But stop using terroristic tactis of bombing clinics and killing people. ETA: I wonder if the jury took 30 minutes trying to find a way to convict his lawyer for offering such a lamebrain defense. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/70 "2010-01-29T19:41:32Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > ETA: I wonder if the jury took 30 minutes trying to find a way to convict his lawyer for offering such a lamebrain defense. What was the non-lamebrain defense? ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/71 "2010-01-29T20:00:30Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > What was the non-lamebrain defense? The Chewbacca defense? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/72 "2010-01-29T20:01:02Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I am so doing my Happy Dance. My message to the anti-abortion people is: Abortion is legal. If you don’t like that fact, go to Washington and try to change it. But stop using terroristic tactis of bombing clinics and killing people. Thanks so much Annie! The .001% of pro lifers who think that bombing clinics and killing people is OK will surely be changed by your heartfelt message. Meanwhile the 99.999% of pro lifers who thoroughly reject bombing clinics and killing people will just smile at yet another attempt to paint them as terrorists. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/73 "2010-01-29T20:02:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, but he’s still working for the defendant, and not the other way around - so if Roeder told him to shut up and let him jabber, he’s got no choice. But that isn’t a public defender trying to “squeeze out a last minute public service announcement for the cause.” > [@Oregon sunshine](#): > > I’m against the death penalty, but I’m pretty sure I would make an exception for this guy. That means you’re for the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/74 "2010-01-29T20:29:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Killing an innocent is pretty immoral, IMHO. I see that we’re in complete agreement about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/75 "2010-01-29T20:34:29Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > Well, that decision is ultimately Roeder’s, isn’t it? Maybe his lawyer didn’t want him up there, but acquiesced to the client’s wishes. Sure. And given this guy’s an evident nut, he may have simply wanted this to be a showcase for his views, not a vigorous legal advocacy. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/76 "2010-01-29T20:38:19Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Thanks so much Annie! The .001% of pro lifers who think that bombing clinics and killing people is OK will surely be changed by your heartfelt message. Meanwhile the 99.999% of pro lifers who thoroughly reject bombing clinics and killing people will just smile at yet another attempt to paint them as terrorists. Well done! You don’t know Annie very well, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/77 "2010-01-29T20:38:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Funny that you say Roeder had no _mens rea_ for murder, yet you call Tiller “immoral,” when he obviously had no belief that he was doing anything wrong either. > > You’re aware that these were not elective abortions, are you not? If you read my post carefully you’ll note that I actually said both Roeder and Dr. Tiller were immoral. I’ve tried to differentiate between the moral discussion concerning murder and the legal discussion. From a legal standpoint there was some argument as to whether or not Roeder may have been guilty of voluntary manslaughter instead of first degree murder; however the judge ruled that the jury could not even consider this option (I’ll defer to his legal expertise on this.) So from a legal perspective, Roeder committed murder and was convicted of murder. From a legal perspective, Dr. Tiller had not done anything wrong. However, from a moral perspective I think Dr. Tiller was an abomination. I don’t think Dr. Tiller was a _murderer_ because he didn’t have a guilty mind, he did not believe that what he was doing was a moral wrong. Same thing with Scott Roeder, Roeder did not believe that what he was doing was a moral wrong. In fact, he felt it was a moral _necessity_. Both Scott Roeder and Dr. Tiller were incorrect, and both committed immoral acts. Like I said, I view it as extremely hard to justify a homicide morally. I think you have to at least try something else first, and exhaust all possible options. The only situations in which I can say a homicide is truly morally acceptable would be: -Situations in war, in which you are acting in accordance with accepted military norms -Self defense when your life or the life of another is in imminent danger or the health and well being of another is in imminent danger -Certain far-fetched situations like people who had opportunities to assassinate Adolf Hitler and et cetera I will say this though, **everyone** has a moral obligation to do what is right. If that goes against the law, you still have a moral obligation to do what is right. Part of that is that you have to stand up and accept the consequences though, under the law. There usually isn’t a moral defense for attempting to hide from law enforcement or a moral defense for threatening others with a weapon in order to escape capture. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/78 "2010-01-29T20:43:18Z")
> [@Kiber](#): > > I’m amazed that his defense is getting any press at all. He confessed to the murder. There’s really nothing left to discuss. I’m just so surprised that the media is covering his defense as if it has any legitimacy at all. His defense is no more legitimate than the defense used by the Unabomber or Timothy McVeigh - and shouldn’t be treated as any more legitimate by the press. Yes, well, Roeder’s “defense” has a lot more American sympathizers. That’s just how it is. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/79 "2010-01-29T21:08:40Z")
Dr Tiller was a good man doing a hard job. He gave people options after hearing terrible news about their own health or the health of their unborn child. His work saved women’s lives and in many cases saved marriages and parental mental health that would have been destroyed by raising severely disabled or life-limited children. He deserved better than to be gunned down in what should have been a sanctuary. It is nice to see justice prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/80 "2010-01-29T21:27:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Much clearer, and I didn’t mean to sound as if I was jumping down your throat. > > Yeah, I think where his defense will (or should) fail him was that he’s saying he was acting in defense of others – that is, his honestly-held but objectively unreasonable belief was that Dr. Tiller was acting illegally in aborting late-term babies. Thats’ fine… except that even if that’s all true, the danger to others typically has to be imminent. Unless the evidence will show that the foyer of Dr. Tiller’s church had an exam table, stirrups, and a patient waiting for a D&C, I don’t see how the jurors can find the danger to others was imminent. > > But again, that’s a question of fact for the jurors to resolve. I think this is important. **Bricker** has said some obnoxious things on this board over the years, but one thing he regularly gets jumped for – improperly, IMO – is when he, as a retired defense attorney, points out that an accused is entitled to a good defense. Personally, I think that Roeder is guilty of premeditated murder. But trying to establish that the facts warrant voluntary manslaugher instead of murder is a perfectly valid tactic for his defense to raise – and I for one am glad that **Bricker** brought that argument out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883.md?page=5)