# I had the right to kill this man in cold blood because I didn't like his performing legal acts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883 "2010-01-29T14:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/101 "2010-01-30T01:13:25Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Wow, nothing is out west on that list, how did those states stop it? I expected more of it out west. Glad to see there are so few left, how did they do it? Shooting doctors and bombing clinics. Or more ‘civilized’ protests like screaming at the staff as they come and go during the day, doing the same to patients, and using threats and scare tactics of one kind or another. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/102 "2010-01-30T01:20:47Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Glad to see there are so few left, how did they do it? Religious terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/103 "2010-01-30T02:03:12Z")
Religious terrorism entails lightning bolts and perhaps a plague or two. Cheap, vile thuggery and intimidation. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/104 "2010-01-30T02:14:05Z")
Or, and I’ll just go out on a limb here, it’s that less than 1% of all abortions are done in the third trimester, so they are done by specialists. Or that many organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, actually refer their late term abortions out to doctors who specialize in them. Or that some are done by ob/gyns who do them in hospitals that don’t specialize in them, but do them as necessary. Or that many doctors and hospitals have their own moral problems with late term abortions. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/105 "2010-01-30T02:40:26Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Wow, how full of shit are you, exactly? According to the [Los Angeles Times](http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/10/nation/na-tiller10?pg=2)Tiller’s clinic was the only pace in Wichita to get an abortion. The story also notes there are no abortion clinics at all between Kansas City and Denver, CO. Also, according to the story, there are only two doctors left in America willing to perform medically-indicated late term abourtions. > > Even following your own link to late term abortion clinics, the closest one listed is in Arkansas. And that clinic’s web site doesn’t list late term abortions among its services, so there’s a pretty good chance it’s not offered there either. I haven’t been following the issue as closely as I perhaps should have been, but didn’t Tiller’s family say, in the aftermath of his shooting, that his clinic would stay open? I’m pretty sure I read that somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/106 "2010-01-30T02:44:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Or, and I’ll just go out on a limb here, it’s that less than 1% of all abortions are done in the third trimester, so they are done by specialists. Or that many organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, actually refer their late term abortions out to doctors who specialize in them. Or that some are done by ob/gyns who do them in hospitals that don’t specialize in them, but do them as necessary. Or that many doctors and hospitals have their own moral problems with late term abortions. Any of these may or may not be true, but they are not partularly relevant to the lack of ANY abortion clinics. As noted in one of the posts above, are no abortion clinics between Kansas City and Denver. Not just for late term abortions, but for abortions of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/107 "2010-01-30T02:46:53Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > I haven’t been following the issue as closely as I perhaps should have been, but didn’t Tiller’s family say, in the aftermath of his shooting, that his clinic would stay open? I’m pretty sure I read that somewhere. They may have said that at some point, but if they did they changed their minds. The clinic is closed, with no plans to re-open. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/108 "2010-01-30T02:54:14Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Any of these may or may not be true, but they are not partularly relevant to the lack of ANY abortion clinics. As noted in one of the posts above, are no abortion clinics between Kansas City and Denver. Not just for late term abortions, but for abortions of any kind. And, to your line of thinking, that’s not because of the lack of population in the area, the lack of abortions needed, the moral decisions of the doctors or financial reasons of the providers, it’s because of abortion terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/109 "2010-01-30T03:13:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Not me. There’s not a whole lot of point in being against the death penalty if you’re going to go making exceptions for people. I’m just sayin’. Perhaps my beliefs have changed. Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/110 "2010-01-30T03:47:45Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And, to your line of thinking, that’s not because of the lack of population in the area, the lack of abortions needed, the moral decisions of the doctors or financial reasons of the providers, it’s because of abortion terrorists? Yes. Abortion providers face an incredible degree of harrassment. We can quibble if you want over whether the term ‘terrorism’ is warranted, but given the numbers of abortion providers who’ve been shot, or shot at, or stalked, or screamed at, or threatened, I would argue it is warranted. I worked in a hospital for 8 years, and I personally know many doctors who won’t perform abortions because they are afraid of the consequences. My own hospital didn’t allow them in-house except in cases of medical emergency, though it does quietly finance a nearby clinic where they are performed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/111 "2010-01-30T04:17:00Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > :rolleyes: Classic. > > So there are in fact _more_ late term providers than there were before the murder. This directly contradicts **Elvis** ’s point. > > And late term or not, there are abortion options in [Wichita](http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=abortion+wichita&fb=1&gl=us&hq=abortion&hnear=wichita&view=text&ei=52hjS4iuMJL-M_-X_fMG&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=2&ved=0CCYQtQMwAQ). > > So let’s see a cite, buckwheat. “Late term abortion” is a political phrase used to refer to anything after the first trimester. It does not usually mean 3rd trimester. Tiller was one of only three doctors in the US who petformed 3rd trimester abortions, and only did so if two other doctors had determined that it was an urgent medical necessity. These were often cases where the fetus was already dead or dying, or where the mother’s life or health were grievously threatened or both. They were not elective abortions. These were not women who wanted to terminate. They were women who had no choice. Dr. Tiller had been shot twice before and had his clinic firebombed once because he felt a moral duty to provide these women with treatment they needed but which too few have the courage to provide. Showing cites for facilities that perform “late term” abortions doesn’t mean anything, because “late term” means 2nd trimester, not 3rd trimester (though the pro-life movement desperately wants people to _think_ it means 3rd, which is why it uses that deceptive phrase in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/112 "2010-01-30T08:10:11Z")
What annoys me most is [this image](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/01/28/article-1246741-080BBAB4000005DC-880_468x713.jpg), showing a man with a sign suggesting that Roeder get a “fair trial”, as though a fair trial would be one where his murder of a doctor were ruled a manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/113 "2010-01-30T10:25:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Um… what? > > As a matter of law, there is a crime in that state called voluntary manslaughter. That crime exists when someone has an objectively unreasonable but still honestly held belief that circumstances he was facing justified deadly force. > > Whether those circumstances actually existed in a question of fact for a jury to decide. > > What is “illegitimate” about that defense? > > Be specific, please. It’s not relevant to the defense that the circumstances didn’t actually, reasonably justify deadly force. It’s only relevant that the actor honestly believed that they did. Sorry, performing a procedure on some random woman is not imperiling you … now if he was threatening to perform an abortion on HIM … :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/114 "2010-01-30T11:39:03Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Thanks so much Annie! The .001% of pro lifers who think that bombing clinics and killing people is OK will surely be changed by your heartfelt message. Meanwhile the 99.999% of pro lifers who thoroughly reject bombing clinics and killing people will just smile at yet another attempt to paint them as terrorists. Well done! And why should the claim that such a small percentage of anti-abortion people support such actions be taken seriously? Consider the reaction to the bomber [Eric Rudolph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph); getting support from sympathisers, T-shirts with slogans supporting him and songs written supporting him doesn’t exactly sound like the result of a tiny scattering of people like you claim. Every time something like this happens, it’s handwaved by the anti-abortion people as not reflecting on them, no matter how obviously it is the logical outgrowth of their rhetoric, no matter how many threats they spew and no matter how much they gloat over their victim. Given the sheer, fundamental evil of the anti-abortion position, the utter malignance of it, I expect that most actually support such behavior. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > However, from a moral perspective I think Dr. Tiller was an abomination. In other words, you are a woman hating monster. You want them to suffer, you want them to die. Which is of course the real goal of the anti-abortion movement, who are about as “pro-life” as Jack the Ripper. And with a similar attitude towards women. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Same thing with Scott Roeder, Roeder did not believe that what he was doing was a moral wrong. In fact, he felt it was a moral _necessity_. Because he was another woman hating monster. Like you, he wanted to make sure that women suffered and died, so he killed a man who was saving them to punish the sluts. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/115 "2010-01-30T12:14:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And, to your line of thinking, that’s not because of the lack of population in the area, the lack of abortions needed, the moral decisions of the doctors or financial reasons of the providers, it’s because of abortion terrorists? **Hamlet** , you may find this Frontline episode interesting. > **[The Last Abortion Clinic | FRONTLINE | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/)** > > Today, the headlines are filled with speculation about changes in the U.S. Supreme Court and what those changes might mean for abortion -- an issue that has divided the country for over 30 years. But while the spotlight is on Washington, there is... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/116 "2010-01-30T14:27:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Given the sheer, fundamental evil of the anti-abortion position, the utter malignance of it, I expect that most actually support such behavior. Let’s see a cite that the majority of anti-abortion folks support murdering abortionists. Failing that, shut your lying yap. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/117 "2010-01-30T14:56:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Let’s see a cite that the majority of anti-abortion folks support murdering abortionists. > > Failing that, shut your lying yap. > > Regards, > Shodan I hope you have either a really long book or an encyclopaedia. Also, not breath-holding. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/118 "2010-01-30T15:49:44Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes. Abortion providers face an incredible degree of harrassment. We can quibble if you want over whether the term ‘terrorism’ is warranted, but given the numbers of abortion providers who’ve been shot, or shot at, or stalked, or screamed at, or threatened, I would argue it is warranted. I worked in a hospital for 8 years, and I personally know many doctors who won’t perform abortions because they are afraid of the consequences. My own hospital didn’t allow them in-house except in cases of medical emergency, though it does quietly finance a nearby clinic where they are performed. While much of what you say is true, I disagree that the harassment is the sole reason that there aren’t more abortion providers in rural Kansas or the US. The other reasons I’ve listed before are all reasons are all additional reasons that there aren’t more doctors advertising as abortion providers. To blame the harassment, and only the harassment, is, to me, myopic. But, this is a hijack. Let’s just agree that it is a good thing that this murdering scum was convicted and will likely never see the outside of a prison again. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/119 "2010-01-30T16:25:03Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > While much of what you say is true, I disagree that the harassment is the sole reason that there aren’t more abortion providers in rural Kansas or the US. The other reasons I’ve listed before are all reasons are all additional reasons that there aren’t more doctors advertising as abortion providers. To blame the harassment, and only the harassment, is, to me, myopic. > > But, this is a hijack. Let’s just agree that it is a good thing that this murdering scum was convicted and will likely never see the outside of a prison again. Harrassment is in fact the sole reason why there aren’t many more providers. I’m sure there are doctors who won’t do abortions because of moral qualms or other reasons, but if the harrassment factor were removed, the number of providers would go way up. I don’t have a cite for this, but but I do know that the number of providers has gone way down over the years due ti harassment, and if only those people returned to it, that would be a lot. Sorry I can’t quantify it, ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883/120 "2010-01-30T16:49:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t have a cite for this Alrighty then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-had-the-right-to-kill-this-man-in-cold-blood-because-i-didnt-like-his-performing-legal-acts/526883.md?page=7)