# I hate "African American"! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2000, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955 "2000-04-08T23:47:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/21 "2000-04-09T18:26:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by SterlingNorth: > > \*\*On secomd thought, I’m feeling a little bit puckish today. Satan, d’ya mind if I play your advocate for just a bit. \*\* Well, you know, Sterling - there’s always enough of me to go around! 😃 > [@](#): > > **Are any terms “off limits”?** Well, here’s a little story about a lovely lady who was my grandmother. She died a couple of years ago at thee age of 98. She was a devout Catholic woman, and she would relate to this if she was still here. She was born in 1900. She lived in a rural part of upstate New York (Olean) until she got married and moved to NYC to be with her husband. Only then - in the mid 20’s - did she even _see_ a black person for the first time. She certinly got used to them (and many other ethnicities) as the Jamaica, Queens neighborhood where she lived for over 40 years went from being all white to almost all black while she was there. Despite this, she was a prejudiced person, and it saddened me when it came up. It was not an overt thing, but a sign of her generation. When my dad was mugged, it was by some people who happened to be black; when my grandma was mugged, it was by a black person. Big difference. Anyway, to get to the point that Sterling raised, my grandma had a sweet tooth. She loved chocolate. I’m not sure what candy she wanted when she was in a store, but the nickname she knew them from when she was much younger as was “nigger babies.” Anyway, grandma, who was in her late '80s at this point, went into a store and asked the clerk if she had any nigger babies. The clerk happened to be a black woman. The clerk went OFF on grandma. I still feel badly for her learning that lesson in such an in-your-face manner, and I know she was confused, but it’s proof that you are never too olkd to learn! I mean, to show that her intent was nothing more than usage of a word she was familiar with (right or wrong), she asked a _black clerk_ this! If she felt it was a bad thing to say, or a slur, she never would have done that. I can tell you, she never did it again… So, I think there are some oldsters out there who are still from this different world, where words meant different things. I have a tolerance for them, even if I feel sorry for them that they also have some prejudiced views and stereotypes which are also left over from those days as well. But in a young person, I have a hard time excusing such ignorance of the times. I don’t know how old the sheriff in the story is, but you know what? He has probably been told that “porch monkey” is a statement with racist overtones that hurts people. Must he be verbally lambasted loudly in a crowded store in order to get the point that times had changed? Grandma, for all of her faults, learned her lesson. Seems to me that the good sheriff is not listening, or learning… * * * Yer pal, Satan ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/22 "2000-04-09T19:07:00Z")
I prefer “brown”. If we are gonna identify people by their hue, let’s be accurate. Brown has one very important advantage. It makes people think. Lots of folks have preconceived notions. If you say a person is black, many people are gonna start forming opinions _without knowing the individual you are refering to_. I hate the term (whatever)-american. I am gonna start a threat on **that** topic tonight. * * * Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/23 "2000-04-09T20:04:00Z")
I really hope you meant “thread”. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/24 "2000-04-09T20:30:00Z")
Um…yea, My bad. 🙂 * * * Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it. ---
**Author:** ![spankboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@spankboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spankboy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/25 "2000-04-09T20:40:00Z")
Another weird twist on the ‘porch monkey’ thing-one of my hockey buddies was once in the Navy, and related to me that there was a position on the KP crew that was informally titled ‘porch monkey’. This person was in charge of regulating the flow of sailors into the mess hall. In fact, part of the routine was for the platoon leader (or whatever they are called in the Navy), to sound off to the tune of “Porch Monkey, platoon blah blah blah ready for chow” when his unit arrived at the mess hall. I have no reason not to believe him, but are there any former Navy types that have heard of this? -sb * * * “This is going to take a special blend of psychology and extreme violence.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/26 "2000-04-10T01:08:00Z")
SterlingNorth was talking about the Bush appointee who has no clue. Among other things, Charles W. Williams said: > [@](#): > > blacks didn’t mind being called “niggers” 50 years ago. “It wasn’t any big deal back then,” he said in an October 1998 sworn deposition. Ok, first thing – this man is a complete moron. > [@](#): > > “I’ve been around race with blacks and browns all my life,” added Williams, who is white. “I’m the farthest thing from a racist.” Uh huh. And I’m sure all those blacks said, "We don’t care about being called “‘niggers.’” SN said: > [@](#): > > Let’s ignore the fact our friend here may have no common sense whatsoever. How is he in the wrong. Well, first he is in the wrong for just plain being wrong. “Nigger” was not used as a term of endearment, for crying out loud! > [@](#): > > Are any terms “off limits”? I would say that one sure is. I recently read a book written by an on-again/off-again member of this very message board, GregAtlanta (Greg Freeman). The book, _Lay This Body Down_, is a story about a white man in the south – after slavery had been officially outlawed – who murdered a bunch of “niggers.” They weren’t human, they were “niggers.” The court transcripts and newspaper articles make it quite clear that there is a difference between a person and a “nigger.” And “niggers” were treated worse than animals. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/27 "2000-04-10T03:28:00Z")
Remember a few years ago when there was a spate of curch burnings? The headlines would begin: “Arson attacks on African-American churches…” My response would always be: “That’s funny, I was under the impression that they were Christian churches” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/28 "2000-04-10T05:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure all those blacks said, "We don’t care about being called “‘niggers.’” . . . “Nigger” was not used as a term of endearment, for crying out loud! I’ve worked with a number of black people who referred to one another as “niggahs” in what seemed to be a quite friendly manner, and even a few white people who called their black friends “niggahs” in the same way. There didn’t seem to be any awkwardness about it at all; the only person who felt awkward on hearing that was _me_, since I’d had it drilled into my head that the “n-word” was supposedly so horrible. Don’t know if that jibes with the current ideology up there in the ivory tower, but I’ve heard it with my own ears–make of it what you will. ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/29 "2000-04-10T05:22:00Z")
Matt\_mcl, the way I differentiate Native Americans from the people of the Asian subcontinent, is to refer to the latter as people of “IN-CHA”, best pronounced while wearing a monocle and with a riding crop in hand. On a related topic, I refer to myself as a person of pallor. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/30 "2000-04-10T05:35:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s ignore the fact our friend here may have no common sense whatsoever. How is he in the wrong{?} And to address SterlingNorth’s question directly, I’d say that the guy might be basically correct in pointing out that it’s a matter of context. The context in which the “n-word” is deemed acceptable has of course narrowed tremendously in the past 50 years. However one important caveat would be the different interpretations of context between the people involved; maybe Mr. Williams really did perceive blacks as not minding the “n-word” way back when, but that still doesn’t say much about how the blacks themselves felt. > [@](#): > > The court transcripts and newspaper articles make it quite clear that there is a difference between a person and a “nigger.” And “niggers” were treated worse than animals. So were the _Jude_ (Jews) in Nazi Germany; in that time and place, Jews were regarded, ipso facto, as sub-humans–very similar to how you describe this single redneck’s use of the word “nigger”. Does that mean that the word _Jude_ should be banned forevermore? Of course not: I’m afraid you’re guilty of a logical fallacy, Mr. Moderator. And if your intention is to lambaste SterlingNorth for daring to play devil’s advocate on this issue, I’d just say that you remind me of my high school English teacher when our class was discussing Ralph Ellison’s _Invisible Man_. She was skeptical of a few episodes presented in the book, and tried to debate them with another teacher. When my English teacher challenged the other woman to defend her interpretation of the book, this older lady, who happened to be black, gave her a rhetorical slapdown by remarking, “I damn well lived through it”. DHR ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/31 "2000-04-10T06:55:00Z")
MATT: the term is “amerind”. Does not apply to the innuit, etc, tho… ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/32 "2000-04-10T07:13:00Z")
People invent terms like “African-American” to create lots of semantic arguments. It’s a new thing to be wrong about. We are so terrified of all substantive arguments that we have to create lots and lots of new terms and complain about the old ones all the time so nobody will ever know what anybody is talking about. The problem is, the cognitive lumpenproletariat think words have hymens. That’s right, words start out as virgins, then they get fucked and you can never use them again. “Wench” used to mean “girl or young woman”, but then some misogynist used it disparagingly, so now its negative connotations have become denotations, and you can’t use it any more. Some anti-gun person once confused “automatic” with “semi-automatic”, so now all the pro-gun people break out in hives whenever anybody says “semi-automatic”. If it was ever used wrong, it is an obsolete term forever. The problem is, we go through words a little too quickly. German and Spanish words for “black” are no-nos. Some dumbshit came up with “people of color”, and the even worse term used at colleges, “students of color” (yeah, you thought they were students of chemical engineering and stuff). African-American is one of the _less_ annoying of the crap the politically correct people have made up. Sure, I’ll call anybody whatever they are comfortable with. I’m just not going to call somebody something just because some college student reeking of cloves tells me to. Just don’t bother getting comfortable with any term in particular. In a year or two all of the terms we use now are going to have the clove-reeking college students puking all over again, and we’ll have to start calling black people something new, probably something that would be considered offensive today. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/33 "2000-04-10T13:22:00Z")
I also hate the term “African-American,” and only use it in writing if it’s in quotes. I have two friends who were born and raised in Africa and are now U.S. citizens—and they are white. I also have a black friend who is from the British Virgin Islands and who goes ballistic when anyone calls him African-American. I was watching a TV show on vaudeville, and Bert Williams was repeatedly referred to as “the first African-American star on Broadway,” when he was neither African NOR American! Call me picky, but the phrase is so vague and misleading it drives me nertz. —Eve (a Russian/Transvylvanian-American) ---
**Author:** ![Centerline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Centerline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Centerline)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/34 "2000-04-10T14:05:00Z")
You know, I am waiting for the day when we can introduce all Americans as “Americans” without having to refer to the color of the skin, which is irrelevant in so many situations. Like if you introduce someone as a great American commedian for an award as opposed to a great “Black” American commedian for the same award. No matter how PC that is, somehow it takes away from the honor. ---
**Author:** ![SqrlCub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SqrlCub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SqrlCub)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/35 "2000-04-10T14:21:00Z")
You know, I just call black people black. I don’t put a judgement on the term. I put a judgement on the term “nigger” which I never use because it is so demeaning. Also, Matt, when I refer to Indians I use the dot or feather analogy. Was it techchick that said it first? HUGS! Sqrl * * * [SqrlCub’s Arizona Adventure](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005351.html) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/36 "2000-04-10T15:23:00Z")
The first time I heard “porch monkey”, it was used to refer to one’s children (regardless of race). Sorta like “rug rat”. ---
**Author:** ![cleosia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@cleosia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cleosia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/37 "2000-04-11T05:52:00Z")
Doghouse Reilly: > [@](#): > > I’ve worked with a number of black people who referred to one another as “niggahs” in what seemed to be a quite friendly manner, and even a few white people who called their black friends “niggahs” in the same way. I think it has a lot to do with context and relationships. I call my husband a _wop_ or _guina(sp?)_ because I’m familiar with him and I know he won’t take it the wrong way. **However** , I would never address an Italian person I just met or knew slightly by those terms because it would be inappropriately familiar of me to do so. We would not know each other well enough to assume that no harm was meant by something that could be found very offensive. As for the term “porch monkey,” my husband has a great story about that. He was working in the proofreading dept of a major brokerage house when they hired a white professional from South Africa (this was in the 80’s). This “gentleman” sent a personal letter to the word processing dept to be typed in which he referred to “porch monkeys.” It just happened that almost all of the people working in this department were black. Needless to say, from that moment on, there was always a problem in the timely turnaround of any of any work he generated! 😃 * * * Bitch by Birth ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/38 "2000-04-11T00:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > MATT: the term is “amerind”. No, “the” term is not Amerind… anyway, to the best of my knowledge, Amerind is a somewhat old-fashioned anthropological term. Standard Canadian usage (CBC and The Globe and Mail) is First Nations or native, or (rarely) Indian. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/39 "2000-04-11T01:31:00Z")
Doghouse said: > [@](#): > > I’ve worked with a number of black people who referred to one another as “niggahs” in what seemed to be a quite friendly manner, and even a few white people who called their black friends “niggahs” in the same way. You’re right – today some do refer to each other that way. I don’t pretend to know why and I would never use the term. However, we were talking about 50 years ago, not today. > [@](#): > > So were the Jude (Jews) in Nazi Germany; in that time and place, Jews were regarded, ipso facto, as sub-humans–very similar to how you describe this single redneck’s use of the word “nigger”. First of all, I didn’t describe a “single redneck’s” use of the term – I described the way it was used in general. If you’re going to criticize, at least pay attention. Second of all, there is a difference between just thinking Jews are sub-human and having a word just to designate it, which is what “nigger” was/is. > [@](#): > > Of course not: I’m afraid you’re guilty of a logical fallacy, Mr. Moderator. I’m afraid you’re guilty of not paying attention, Mr. Doghouse. > [@](#): > > And if your intention is to lambaste SterlingNorth for daring to play devil’s advocate on this issue Like I said, you’re not paying attention. There is absolutely nothing in my post that could reasonably be interpreted in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955/40 "2000-04-11T08:20:00Z")
You got me, I admit it. I must not be paying attention, because I find your argument impossible to follow. First, you acknowledge that many people do use the “n-word” or a close variant in a non-hostile, even friendly way, _and_ you courageously admit that you have no idea why. Then you repeat your blanket statement that the “n-word” is an unacceptable degradation of black people in any and all cases regardless of context (and context is the key issue, whether 50 years ago or today). Like I said, I just can’t combat that kind of cognitive dissonance. And regarding whatever book it was that you mentioned, it makes little difference whether it was a single redneck or a community of rednecks: you’re still using a small and possibly biased sample to draw a general conclusion. Logical fallacy, son. DHR [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-african-american/17955.md?page=3)