Well, I’m sorry to see that you can’t follow a simple discussion. Perhaps if you paid better attention…
That is correct. I could probably guess, but that’s all it would be. In any event, the word was never originally intended to be anything but an insult, a put-down, a showing that somebody is not even a person. While a few people use it differently, I would say those few are the exception, not the rule.
Once again, you show that you are not paying attention. I didn’t say that. Jeez, can’t you even read a message before responding to it?
No, I used a sample from the times – court records, newspapers, etc. Hell, even the fedderal investigators prosecuting the case referred to them that way! You can’t even pay attention long enough to know what book I’m talking about, don’t pay attention to how it was described, claim it was “one person” and then try to cover your ass when I point out that, well, you weren’t paying attention. It isn’t working, son. Instead of playing CYA, why not just try to figure out what’s been said before responding? What a novel idea!
I think we can agree that “faggot” has the same derogatory effect on gay men that “nigger” has on black folk. However, black folk do call each other “nigger” amongst themselves and their friends; similarly, there have been times where I and my friends have called each other “faggot.” Now, my experience has been that the “friendly, amongst-ourselves” version of “nigger” is used more frequently as a term of brotherhood than “faggot” is, but both are nonetheless used.
If I know you and you call me “faggot” and I know the context is friendly and/or joking around, no harm done (I’ll probably call you “faggot” or “fuckin’ breeder” back). If a car full of kids drives by me on the street and one of them yells, “Faggot!” out the window, I don’t think I’m going to assume they meant it to kid around.
Context (or intent) is key. To be trite, both words have been reclaimed from the oppressors by the oppressed to be a word of pride and encouragement and brotherhood, thereby deflating its intended derogatory meaning.
Regarding ‘niggahs’ in conversation between black people - I just saw Maya Angelou speak in SF a month ago, and she had this to say about the topic, near as I can remember it.
She’s a much more powerful speaker than I can convey here, but I hope the point comes across.
Well, Dave, speaking of paying attention, let’s just look at what the other posters are saying in this forum. Now remember, the point that we’re debating is whether certain terms like “n_gger” must be banned and shunned forever and ever until kingdom come. “Off-limits” in SterlingNorth’s phrase. I submit that “n_gger” is a real live term that often does have non-hostile applications, and members of the group you’re ostensibly protecting might not agree with your efforts to curtail words and ideas.
First, I’m not at all convinced that you’re correct to state that “the word was never originally intended to be anything but an insult, a put-down, a showing that somebody is not even a person”. I’m not an etymologist, so this assertion is far from self-evident to me. Where’s your support for it? I rather tend to believe that you’re one of the “cognitive lumpenproletariat” identified by Boris B:
OK, maybe the whole of American society at one point in time generally used “n_gger” as a perjorative, just as the whole of German society once used the term Jude in the same way. But that speaks nothing of the word’s origins or of its use today. I’m not sure I would agree entirely with Esprix’s analysis that, like “faggot”, “n_gger” has been “reclaimed from the oppressors by the oppressed to be a word of pride and encouragement and brotherhood” but it’s clear that in some way, some black people and even some white people have come to adopt a usage of the word that doesn’t have the inherent hostility and oppression that you imply.
I would respectfully disagree with douglips and Maya Angelou, in that I believe that words don’t carry some magical “poisonous” effect totally separate from the context in which they’re used. Words are vehicles of communication, the communication of ideas. If the hostile idea isn’t there, the hostile semantics of a word aren’t there either.
I agree with Doghouse and disagree with Ms Angelou. Gay used to be an insult, and it still is (“You’re so gay!”) but it certainly can be used (usually is) in a non-insulting fashion. Similarly, “homosexual” used to be a fairly neutral term, but its air has gotten slightly more chilly as we’ve moved along (probably due to the sort of quack psychiatrists and cable-TV preachers who pronounce it “homasekshal”).
I hate to break into this conversation concerning Blacks, but where I’m from, porch monkey was not used as a racial slur and was mainly applied to young, White children. It was in relation to the old Southern style of having big porches, where young children played, being too young to go into the yard alone or simply preferring the cooling shade.
SATAN
I read the episode concerning your grandmother with interest. I found it somewhat interesting also that you seemed to agree with the lambasting of an obviously elderly lady over an unintentional racial slur. In my time I have been insulted by Black elderly people in several people oriented jobs, but never have I found it necessary to respond in anger, considering A: their advanced age, B: their upbringing and C: what they must have gone through in their younger years. In your tale, I found the attitude of the Black clerk reprehensible. I can imagine the poor old lady, seeking out her favorite treat, requesting them by the only name she recalled and being loudly insulted by the clerk and, embarrassed, feelings hurt, having to leave without her candy and probably not real sure just why she had been chastised.
Exceptions should always be made for the elderly of any race.
Some mornings, it’s just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
<lurk mode off>
I’m of Cherokee descent. I dislike the term “Amerind”, it sounds very artificial to me. I detest “Aboriginal” and “First People” for the same reason, they’re contrived, and strike me as a little condescending, even. “Native American” is ok, but it’s not very precise… what about everyone else born in the US? They’re not “native”? (And it seems to exclude Canadians and Mexicans who are of similar descent) “Indian” or “American Indian” are also imprecise, coming from a geographical error, but they don’t sound so contrived to me, maybe because they’re older terms. Best of all would be to refer to people by their specific tribes, but it’s impossible to know that without asking, so… call me Indian, if you have to call me something. Just don’t call me late for dinner
<lurk mode on>
The same logic that the geezer mentioned arlier seems to employ. The fact is, my ex-wife said the same thing once. I told her what it meant to a lot of people. She was somewhat shocked, but she never used the term in front of me again.
**
Where in what I said did you get the idea that I thought it was keen that she went through this? I said exactly that “I felt bad that she had to lean this in such a manner,” so don’t put words in my fucking mouth.
The point I made was exactly that 1) elderly people have different vocabularies and different usages of the same words which may be innocent but that 2) when these are pointed out to them, whether politely or the way it was to my grandmother, they should get the point. My grandma did. This Bush appointee does not.
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Three days, 12 hours, 35 minutes and 29 seconds.
140 cigarettes not smoked, saving $17.62.
Life saved: 11 hours, 40 minutes.
My sister and brother-in-law work as missionaries in Congo (nee Zaire). IIRC, at least one of their sons was born over there. Does that make them “American-Africans”?
Wrong thinking is punished, right thinking is just as swiftly rewarded. You’ll find it an effective combination.
i THINK PORCH MONKEY IS DEFINITELY DEROGATORY.
My 89 yr old grandmother refers to black people like this. “that nice colored girl came to visit me today.” The point I am making is simple different generations call people different things. And my granny is as far from a racist as you get.
When I was in the army my black friends used to call me honkey or cone (cone for the kkk hats) in jest. it never bothered me. I understand that racism is alive and has many faces and names but it seems to me that most black people who I know or meet seem to embrace my friendship and cultural differnces.
Everone has predjudices but the key is to keep an open mind with everyone. My generation x or whatevr the hell we are called these days-seems to get that race is not so much the issue but understanding differnces between the two. and while we are at it in the U.S. I feel I had to work just as hard in life I feel as anyone else regardless of race. drugs,gangs and violence were avaliable to me just as much as anyone else.
the point I am making is if you want to do well in life it’s your personal responsibility. Black,white or other if your not having a great life don’t blame “the man” blame yourself. I’m sorry if I got off track of the subject.
