# I HATE GLEE... in which I pit the inadequacy of American English **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799 "2005-02-12T22:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/21 "2005-02-13T10:36:01Z")
As long as we are bantering favorite German words…mine is “geil” (pronounced guy-al). It means horny…Ich bin geil. Or sexy…Du bist geil. Or hot/cool/in…Das ist geiil. The English word I hate is “enjoy”. It is such a lackluster word. “I enjoyed it”…what the hell does that mean? It is so…so non-nothing blah blah. Amd I agree that “glee” sounds like somthing stuck to your shoe; a word that doesn’t live up to its definition. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/22 "2005-02-13T14:29:42Z")
Well I never! :eek: Goodness gracious me! 😕 Strewth - gorblimey - lumme! :mad: At first I think I’ve been pitted, then it turns out I haven’t, then I get support (thanks Ilsa-Lund, Tveblen + Astro! 🆒 ), then I get advised to change my name. Right. [Insult mode ON] Askia, you are a cad and a bounder. And what’s with YOUR username, anyway? Can’t you spell? I have to lie down now - I hope nobody was offended… ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/23 "2005-02-13T18:55:11Z")
To **glee** : Cad? Bouncer? Are you sure that’s your insult hat on? Sorry for the confusion, mate. But weren’t you secretly briefly thrilled to think you had a cyberfoe who pitted you? Tis’ a wise Klingon proverb which says that “Only our enemies make us truly alive.” (Okay, no. I think I made that up.) **Liberal** and **blowero.** _Schadenfreude_ is not an American English word. It’s a cognate of the exact same word borrowed from German, as evidenced by our retaining the italics – _n’est ce pas?_ _Glee_ is Old English: my argument is that it’ll be more useful if it had a synonymous meaning with _schadenfreude._ **Lily**. I shan’t be sullying “lily.” Your eponymous flower is anything but mundane. If I ever pit a seeding flower, it’ll be those damn dandelions blowing from my neighbor’s lawn. Sadly, I have no kids of my own. I teach kindergarten. I see that smile all the time when perky little darlings are off their Ritalin. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/24 "2005-02-13T19:00:56Z")
You’ll find “schadenfreude” in any English dictionary from the past 100+ years, like the _many, many hundreds upon hundreds of English words which orginated in another language._ ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/25 "2005-02-13T19:12:20Z")
The line between a word stolen from another language that is “ours” and a word stolen from another language that still seems like a foreign word is certainly a hazy one. To me, “schadenfreude” still feels like the latter. I don’t feel like we’ve “owned” it long enough. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/26 "2005-02-13T19:14:29Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **Liberal** and **blowero.** _Schadenfreude_ is not an American English word. In that case, most of your post was in a foreign language. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/27 "2005-02-13T19:39:51Z")
What, were you guys just waiting to pounce? **Knorf.** “Any” English dictionary in the past century? Thats’s overstating. It’s not an ordinary cognate, though. Ignore its presence in the dictonary and observe how it’s actually used in American print and American conversation: it’s frequently italicized to signify its otherness, almost always defined after ts first use and many people like to pronounce it in such a way as to highlight its Germanic origins. **Snooooopy** : Ageed. (I hope I counted thse 'o’s right.) **Liberal.** No, most of my post was in my native language which is composed of borrowed cognates. YOU understood it, so it’s not “foreign.” ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/28 "2005-02-13T19:44:12Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Ignore its presence in the dictonary and observe how it’s actually used in American print and American conversation: it’s frequently italicized to signify its otherness, almost always defined after ts first use and many people like to pronounce it in such a way as to highlight its Germanic origins. And that will change as we “own” it longer. I’m serious about expecting the pronounctiation to change, though maybe not the spelling. Pedants will stop italicizing it; it won’t be defined anymore. I think we’re at the stage now of filing off the serial numbers, just in case German comes looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/29 "2005-02-13T20:52:56Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **Knorf.** “Any” English dictionary in the past century? Thats’s overstating. It’s not an ordinary cognate, though. Ignore its presence in the dictonary and observe how it’s actually used in American print and American conversation: it’s frequently italicized to signify its otherness, almost always defined after ts first use and many people like to pronounce it in such a way as to highlight its Germanic origins. I think it’s frequently italicized to signify that the author thinks he’s being cool for using a word from a foreign language. Which is why I never italicize schadenfreude when I use it. Because I’m _so_ cool, I don’t even think to draw attention to the foreign words I use in my writing. I’m just that comfortable being international. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/30 "2005-02-13T21:07:56Z")
Heh. Admittedly I do think it’s cool to italicize foreign words and phrases without translation. _Quando a Roma, faccia come il Romans._ I always assumed that was the convention. I look at your use of _schadenfreude_ and think, “ **Miller** forgot to italicize.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/31 "2005-02-13T21:10:19Z")
Would your proposal change the meaning of _gleek_? As it stands now, a _gleek_ is a joke. Would it become the new word of choice for “sick joke” or would the word designate something more sardonic? ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/32 "2005-02-13T21:31:55Z")
Well I think _glee_ is a great word. True, it can be “a fucking hateful little four letter word” - but it’s a damned fine one, good sir! That’s what it’s job is. And yes, naughty children are the masters of glee. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/33 "2005-02-14T02:35:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > In that case, most of your post was in a foreign language. Damn. Beat me to it. 😃 > [@askia](#): > > No, most of my post was in my native language which is composed of borrowed cognates. YOU understood it, so it’s not “foreign.” English doesn’t just borrow ‘cognates’, it borrows many, many words _outright_ from other languages (just as many other languages borrow English words). Those words are every bit as much a part of the English language as any other word. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/34 "2005-02-14T02:41:28Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Heh. Admittedly I do think it’s cool to italicize foreign words and phrases without translation. _Quando a Roma, faccia come il Romans._ I always assumed that was the convention. I look at your use of _schadenfreude_ and think, “ **Miller** forgot to italicize.” No, it’s considered an English word. From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) > [@](#): > > scha·den·freu·de ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shädn-froid) > n. > Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. Quando a Roma, faccia come il Romans is not considered English: > [@](#): > > No entry found for Quando a Roma, faccia come il Romans. > No suggestions were found. > > For better results, try our search tips. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/35 "2005-02-14T02:47:28Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > YOU understood it, so it’s not “foreign.” I understand schadenfreude, too. > [@Merriam-Webster](#): > > Main Entry: scha·den·freu·de Pronunciation Guide > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): -s > Etymology: German, from _ **schaden** _ damage, injury, harm (from Old High German _ **scado** _) + _ **freude** _ joy, from Old High German _ **frewida** _, from \*\*\*fromacr \*\*\*happy – more at **SCATHE** , **FROLIC** > : enjoyment obtained from the mishaps of others > > Citation format for this entry: > > “schadenfreude.” Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. [http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com](http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com) (13 Feb. 2005). It’s an English word now. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/36 "2005-02-14T04:29:16Z")
**blowero.** Cognates are words borrowed from another languages, like jazz, haiku, tomato, ennui, hero and googol – or words in several languages that share a common root and meaning, like the many similar-sounding words for “two.” Some words are newer than others. Some words are more difficult to spell and pronounce than others. What makes a cognate an accepted part of the language is the extent to which it is used by the population at large. **blowero** and **Uvula Donor**. Oh, good. You got your dictionaries. Here’s what I think without looking in mine: if it looks German, spelled German, pronounced German and treated as a foreign word along with a translation, it is NOT “really” an American English word, damned what the damn books say. I refuse to deny the evidence of my own experiences. Nobody has to explain, “lasagne.” But I’ll tell you what… when the word reaches dissemination in the population at large beyond the world of collegiate academics – when the average American six grader can correctly identify _schadenfreude_ as an emotion as readily as they can identify haiku as a kind of poem – when I hear “schadenfreude” used to rhyme with “paranoid” in a pop song, or it becomes the title of an artsy American movie or TV show – then maybe it’ll reconsider it be an American English word. Right now it’s an obscure German cognate adopted by English lexicographers and essentially nobody else… including us. I say this gleefully. THIS is why I gave up being an English major. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/37 "2005-02-14T04:57:10Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **blowero** and **Uvula Donor**. Oh, good. You got your dictionaries. Here’s what I think without looking in mine: if it looks German, spelled German, pronounced German and treated as a foreign word along with a translation, it is NOT “really” an American English word, damned what the damn books say. Hey, whatever makes you happy, you know? It’s not like the language is going to stop growing because of a rant on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/38 "2005-02-14T05:17:48Z")
HEY, WATCH IT. This is a _semi_-rant. But way to put things in perspective, **Uvula.** Gotta watch that. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/39 "2005-02-14T06:12:31Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I should do a serious of semi-rants that pit words with Dopers’ screen names. “I HATE ASTRO… in which I pit the deficiencies in scientfic nomenclature dealing with outer space,” for example. :: snerk :: I dare you, I double-dog dare you to try. 😛 And schadenfreude is so a perfectly good English word. Just like all the other perfectly good English words that have been stolen, lifted, shanghaied, kidnapped, adopted, dragooned, converted, amalgamated, absorbed and lured in from other languages. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799/40 "2005-02-14T06:25:59Z")
Schadenfreude is as English as liqeuer, cartes blanche, hor d’oeuvres, zeitgeist, tsunami, pogonip, weltanschauung, weltschmerz, putz, dreck, kitsch, cafe, sushi, karate, ennui, canyon, pueblo, cappuccino, avant-garde, chic, angst, wunderkind, poltergeist, hinterland, aficionado, bonanza, delicatessen, desperado, graffiti, portfolio, stilletto, futon, and the literally thousands of other words of foreign derivation that have been appropriated into English. They do not need to be italicized. How recently they have been adopted is irrelevant (note that many words in that list were coopted much more recently than schadenfreude). Whether a sixth-grader knows what any of them mean is irrelevant. They would all be permissible, for example, in Scrabble (although I admit it’s hard to imagine getting weltanschauung to work out.) Get over it. You can use schadenfreude, in English, _without italics_. There are a lot of words people don’t don’t know: big deal. If the word fits and expresses what you want it to express, then use it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-glee-in-which-i-pit-the-inadequacy-of-american-english/289799.md?page=3)