This would make for a good GD, but I doubt it could be moved while maintaining Eggo’s ignorant OP. I was just glad to get on the subway on friday after work because it felt good to have an informed debate w/o talk of felching or some such stuff. I think I need to spend more time in GD and less in the pit. Nahhhh.
One other point regarding the bomb, I really think that it could have been avoided had we dropped that stupid “Unconditional Surrender” policy. The Japanese entered into the war with the understanding that a treaty would be reached with concessions made on both sides. By squeezing their oil imports and restricting exports we were strangling them anyway, they had little choice unless they were going to bend over and just take it up the ass. But unlike Germany, they had no dreams of world conquest. Maybe a couple islands, but no domination. They wanted to be just annoying enough to get the embargo lifted and get some concessions. So they signed the alliance w/ Germany, but never had close ties with them. In fact, for the most part they were disgusted with what the Germans were doing, they just needed an ally against the occidentals. What they didn’t count on, however, was just how much Pearl Harbor pissed us off, and raised our national ire/racism (these yellow monkeys wanna fuck with us?) to the point where we demanded unconditional surrender. Honestly, who ever heard of such a thing? Unconditional surrender does NOT happen in wars, no wonder we had to use the bomb to get them to consent to a royal raping. And of course, once we gavce those surrender terms, what choice was there?
This is incorrect.
After Japan’s rapid modernization in the Meiji era, Jpan focused on domination of Asia, starting with war with China in 1894. In 1904, Japan fought Russia in a contest for military dominance over Korea and china, a conflict Japan won. In 1910, Japan colonized Korea and ended the 500-year long Chosun dynasty, turning Korea into the Japanese province of Chosen. In 1931, Japan instigated the Mukden Incident, starting a campaign to conquer Manchuria, and then all of China.
By the 1930’s, Japan’s government had been taken over by a hardline militarist clique bent on conquering Asia and bringing the continent into the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. After conquering parts of China and perpetrating the Nanking Massacre, a three-week orgy of rape and murder of Chinese civilians, Japan drew plans to take over the rest of Asia. Fearing U.S. interference, they War Cabinet attempted to break the strength of the U.S. Pacific Fleet through the atttack at Pearl Harbor. Within 24 hours, Japan had bombed Manila and quickly conquered the Philippines, Malaya, Indonesisa, and Singapore.
The U.S. has routinely held out for Unconditional Surrender ever since U. S. Grant demanded it at Fort Donnelson(sp). The issue was not actually the demand, (which, has always been negotiable–it is simply the standard opening gambit) but the inadequate translations of the offers and counter-offers that were being half-heartedly passed through the Swiss in June and July.
Japan may not have wanted to conquer the U.S., however, I would advise you not to mention their “modest” colonial aspirations of “a few islands” in China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Philipines, Korea, Burma, and India. The “Co-Prosperity Sphere” was a very real and very terrible presence for a quarter of the world’s population.
In addition, the Tripartite Pact was signed on September 26, 1940, between Japan, Germany, and Italy as a means of containing the Soviet Union (Japan on one side and Germany on the other)and as mutual protection against the entry of the United States into the war.
::Carefully removing foot from mouth::
Errp. True dat, true dat. Japan certainly did have its eyes set on big meat in the ‘Co prosperity Sphere’ stuff. I think what I was trying to say was basically that Japan entered the war with the assumption that they would break the oil embargo, make the US back down, and get back to messing with Asia. They never expected the US to respond as it did. The US was so horrified by the sneaky nature of P-Harbor (no formal dec. of war) and by racism they decided to take the reprise to 11.
But as regards the unconditional surrender, yeah, its always nice to use that as a starting point, but we just wouldn’t back off it. And as far as inadequate translations of peace offers, to call them half hearted is an understatement. The US barely let up the unconditional aspects, always holding on to occupation and removal of the emperor. Naturally, the Japanese “peace-feelers” didn’t have the cabinet or the emperor’s support, so could not be taken seriously. The US government never stated willingness to pursue anything but complete victory, that always came across loud 'n clear in any translations.
This is the idiocy that you are keeping at the top of the Pit with your continued tangential discussions. I’ve learned a lot by reading the posts here, and I believe there is merit to further discussions of some issues raised here. However, I believe that we have lost sight of the nature of this thread. I urge you to continue your discussions with a new thread in a more appropriate forum. Posting here showcases the ignorance of the OP. Why do you want to attempt an intelligent discussion under such a flag? Please let this die.
I sorta felt it was a victory of sorts over the ignorance he spouts. A moron comes in here with drivel and hate, and we take that and turn it into an intelligent discussion with interesting points that I, for one, am getting a lot out of.
Time changes many things. You guys are trying to second guess decisions made 55 years ago.
You guys ever heard of the Rape of Nanking?
Medical experiments in Manchuria?
Death March of Bataan? (sp?)
Practice of deadly karate moves on GI prisoners of war?
Would you trade a harmless elderly Japanese women for a harmless pregnant Chinese woman about to have her fetus cut away from her body alive?
well damn, I didn’t expect this to grow so huge. I posted this in a realy bad mood when I was babysitting my little brother and he wouldn’t turn off the damn anime (sp?). i intended it is more of a joke, and when I realized that It WAS in fact a stupid post, I consigned (though silently) that I was wrong. I figured that if I just didn’t argue my point (if I even had one), the post would die. It didn’t, and we are all left with this fiasco. I get it people, let it die.
Eggo, the next time you post something like that and regret it, don’t just sit there in silence and wait for the thread to die. Own up to it, and apologize. You pissed off a lot of people with what you said, especially with that nuke comment. That certainly didn’t read as a joke.
So you admit it . You don’t like anime . How could you make such a generalisation ? Haven’t you ever seen Akira or Ghosts in the Shell you fucking :wally .
May a big eyed Samurai laser sword yeilding freak on a motorbike slice and dice your nuts you fucking dogarse lapping douchebag .
I certinly didn’t mean to anger anyone by that, I just sort of threw that in right at the last second as a joke (sort of a “nuke the whales” type thing). Most of all I would like to stress the fact that i hold NO ill will toward any group of people. None of my comments were directed at people, merely at imported products. I went too far with the “I hate everything about it.” comment, I don’t consider myself a bigoted peoson, and I hope you all accept my most sincere apology.
Not sure at all where these numbers came from. Little Boy (Hiroshima) was 15-16 kilotons. Fat Man (Nagasaki) was 21 kilotons. Megaton-plus explosions are only possible with multi-stage thermonuclear weapons (fission/fusion, usually boosted with high neutron material - tritium or some lithium material). Curiously, the most powerful U.S. manufactured weapon was built in the early 60’s and had a yield of 25 megatons. Most research since then appears to have focused on smaller, more efficient bombs, with yields from 10 tons (yes, tons) to 9 megatons.
Information came from here: The High Energy Weapons Archive
Not speaking as to the main issue, just thought the info might be useful.
It certainly did go on a lot longer that it should have (will this never fucking end??) and it certainly did bring out a lot of facts interesting to a history freak such as me. So all together, I think it rates at least 1/2 of a +, apparent bigotry aside.
eggo, I will accept that apology. I do hope that we never have to meet up like this again.
And hey, what do you have against whales? (Half in jest, of course; you wouldn’t really want to nuke such wonderful creatures. Some people, sure, but not whales. Heh.)