# I hate my American history class and want to drop it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041 "2003-09-16T23:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/41 "2003-09-17T17:17:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*Assuming it was actually him and not his brother or father. They jever did really answer that question. \*\* Gahh! I’ve tried to reply to this about a dozen times (really) and the board kept timing out. Stupid evil white hamsters. I just wanted to say that this is a good point. I should have said something in my earlier post about the fact that it is by no means proven that Thomas Jefferson had a sexual relationship with Sally Hemings. I’ve examined the evidence in detail, and I feel that it is overwhelmingly likely that he did, but there is sufficient “reasonable doubt” that I shouldn’t have stated it as fact. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/42 "2003-09-17T17:23:30Z")
Sorry, all. I gotta side with the OP on this one. Politically-correct required classes are evil. You just have to suck it up and regurgitate the leftist crap they spew, or drop the class and hope for a better draw the next semester. If it was an elective, the options would be different. My favorite tactic was to challenge every single thing the prof said, demanding cites and proof. That gets really annoying after awhile, and shows the prof to be the fool he usually is, if he spouts tripe of the PC type. You fail the class, but have a bunch of fun in the process, and hopefully show some other students just how stupid, silly, and warped the PC brigade can be. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/43 "2003-09-17T17:59:34Z")
Jesus, what a bunch of fucking whiners we have in this thread. I’ve just got a question for some of you: What would, in your opinion, constitute an unbiased American history class? Because some people are giving the strong impression that they would be happy with a 1950s-style litany of explorers, presidents, and generals. Maybe we should even revert to using the terms “savages” and “negros”? The only women to be discussed, of course, would be Pocahontas, Abigail Adams, and Mary Todd Lincoln, with maybe Anne Hutchinson and Rosa Parks thrown in for some rebellious _frisson_. And **silenus** , i hope your little story makes you feel better about the fact that you’re apparently too stupid to even pass a survey course. Of course, your ignorance is all the fault of the evil PC professor. Perhaps the most offensive suggestion here is not that history professors tend to the left-liberal end of the political spectrum–it’s pretty clear that many do. The offensive suggestion is that not simply parrotting the professor’s beliefs will lead to you failing the course. In my experience, this is bullshit. Last year i was TA in a course in American intellectual history. The professor definitely considers herself a liberal, probably even a left-liberal, and i’m a committed leftist. In a class of about 25 students we gave out 2 A’s (it’s a difficult class), one of which went to a card-carrying Republican who spent a summer interning at the Bush White House. I didn’t agree with many of her political positions, but her written work included strong arguments that were obviously based on a good understanding of the sources. Similarly, my girlfriend was TA in a class on race and reform, taught by a leftist professor who got his Ph.D. at Berkeley in the late 1960s. Some of the higher marks in the class went, again, to conservative students who worked hard and showed a good understanding of the issues. In my experience as an undergrad and a grad student and TA, the profs are more concerned with whether you do the work and show a genuine understanding of the material, than whether you parrot a PC ine of thought. In fact, having discussed this with a few professors, and having worked as a TA for some of them, i know that most of them are very concerned not to be biased in their grading, and bend over backwards to ensure fairness when considering the work of students who hold different political opinions. This is not to say that no biased grading ever occurs in any history department–just that it’s not as ubiquitous as some have suggested in this thread. I know that when i’m leading an undergrad section, i’d much prefer to have a student who disagrees with my point of view but who actually does the work, than one who agrees with me but is too lazy to do the reading. Believe it or not, the biggest challenge faced by academics is not conservative students, it’s students who are lazy, or who cheat. I’ve already caught one student handing in a paper copied verbatim from the internet, and others who copied chunks of text straight out of books without using quotation marks or footnotes. The problem is that too many lazy and cheating students then blame their failure on the PC professor–after all, it’s more satisfying than admitting that you’re a useless fuck. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/44 "2003-09-17T18:10:15Z")
Lets look at the history of any given nation: **France** does a bunch of medieval stuff. I think they expelled the Jews at some point, and persecuted the Hugonauts. Then there are some corrupt kings. Then a big bloody revolution. Then comes the Dreyfuss affair. And not too long after the whole damn place is taken over by Nazis. **Japan** does a bunch of medival stuff. Then they go into some kind of funky isolation from the rest of the world. When they emerge they try to take over everything and commit horrific atrocities until they are beaten soundly into submission. **Russia** Pretty much the same as France, except that the revolution is bloodier, the Nazis manage to kill off a huge chunk of the population but don’t actually take over, and some other millions die as a result of famine and corruption. History is an ugly thing. Lots of people die, lots of bad stuff happens, people take over each other in the most corrupt, horrble ways and wars are fought leading to slaughter. Why would you think America is somehow exempt from the horrors that populate the history of every nation on Earth? You seem to know plenty about the pilgrims and the Declaration of Independence. You’ve had this (admittedly important) stuff drilled into your head since you were five. Now it’s time to do what real historians do- question things, try to figure out why things happened, and look deeper than the surface. I’ve never even heard of the Pueblo Revolt. From the way you portray it, it hardly seems like a broad-brushed painting of the Native Americans involved as “noble” or the white folks as particularly “evil”. Unless you can provide some quotes proving that the book portrayed the Pueblos involved as better than the white people involved, I’m going to assume that you are just offended at any mention of Native Americans because you don’t feel that they are an important part of US history. And that makes you a big poopyhead. And I’m going to leave before I get too sad about the intellectual capacity of my peers. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/45 "2003-09-17T18:34:05Z")
The Pueblo Revolt reads interesting… anyone knows of a good (preferably online) source I can use to know more about it? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/46 "2003-09-17T19:00:25Z")
History major chiming in. The problem here, it seems to me, is not PC “evil white men” versus American triumphalism, but embracing simplistic notions of historiography. I find the editing of history to a series of events that back up a particular philosophical or political platform to be nothing more than lying with cites. As one delves more into the events and personalities of the past, one finds that there are very few clear-cut instances of Good versus Evil, but just humans reacitng to the forces of capital, population, and opportunity. Native Americans were niether red devils nor noble savages–they were just pre-technological people who could not resist an expansionist culture with better technology and more access to resources and manpower. To reduce Native Americans to a one-dimensional portrayal as Noble Victims of White Hegemony is to ignore the richness of their disparate cultures and the complexity of their interactions with the expanding United States. A book I recently read deals with this very question. It’s called **Skull Wars** , by David Hurst Thomas, curator of anthropology at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, and it deals with the ways in which the perceptions of history are affected by the forces of race and philosophical bias. Hoighly recommended. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/47 "2003-09-17T19:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*… I’m going to assume that you are just offended at any mention of Native Americans because you don’t feel that they are an important part of US history. \*\* Where did you get that from? The OP neither said nor implied any such thing. I think the onus is on _you_ to show that the Pueblo revolt is as important to American history as the Puritans or the Declaration of Independence. [quote] Now it’s time to do what real historians do- question things, try to figure out why things happened, and look deeper than the surface._“Real historians?” I don’t think you know jack shit about real historians. Real historians may examine aspects of American history that aren’t covered in your average mainstream textbook, but no real historian would dismiss the importance of the contributions of the so-called evil white men._ If you look “deeper than the surface,” you’ll certainly find lots of history beyond that of the white male variety. And if you’re not blinded by some sort of politically correct desire to denigrate the importance of the said white guys, you’ll find out that they were really freaking important. As I said above, I think the main factor in the development of American history is the tension between the idealism of the Declaration and the pragmatism of the Constitution. Dead white guys wrote that shit–inspired by the dead white guys of the Enlightenment. And they did such a good job of it that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have only needed 18 or so changes in the last 212 years! And we’re the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world. I think it’s appropriate for a college class to bypass the hero worship aspect of the study of the founding fathers, and look at the contradictions and hypocrisies that influenced the crafting of the Constitution. This would include the fact that Jefferson’s (apparent) life partner was a slave. This would also include the fact that there’s a lot of evidence that the framers of the Constitution were more interested in the state of their own pocketbooks than the state of the emerging union. (No, I’m not a neo-Beardian, but the guy had a point.) In the end, those evil white guys put together the best constitution this world has ever seen. And that’s worth studying. And if you want to talk Indian revolts that were really important in the development of the United States of America, try King Philip’s War. [Here](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375702628/qid=1063825138/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-2008348-5951332) is a good book on the subject written by a “real” historian. - In my doctoral program, we called them the “dead white guys,” even if they were still alive. Imagine the look on my mentor’s face when I responded to one of his points with “Yeah, of course you think that way. You’re a dead white guy!” :eek: He had a good laugh out of it, and said “I may look it, but I’m not actually dead yet.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/48 "2003-09-17T19:21:48Z")
Mhendo - Just as a point of information for you, I should point out that: a. I was an Anthropology major in college, with minors in European History and Sociology. b. Dean’s list both as an undergrad and in graduate school c. Master’s in Social Science d. I currently TEACH AP European History at the high school level. Your defense of leftist ideologs is typical of what can be found in just about every university in America. They all claim to be unbaised, and point to the examples of their “fairness” in grading. (Why, some of my best friends are minority-group-of-your-choice.) The point is that the classes are ro repressive and dogmatic in tone that dissent is suppressed and debate is stifled. TA’s are the worst. Professors sometimes have some perspective on things, and may be open to debate. TA’s, however, are young, new to their ideals, and dogmatically inflexible to the nth degree. I have yet to meet one that would tolerate the slightest dissent from their obviously divinely-inspired position on any subject. If you are different, then you are truly unique. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/49 "2003-09-17T19:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*The problem here, it seems to me, is not PC “evil white men” versus American triumphalism, but embracing simplistic notions of historiography. \*\* And, yeah. What he said. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/50 "2003-09-17T19:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slortar \* > \*\*Sounds like a graduate level communications/anthropology class I had once. It was, ostensibly, about intercultural communications. I was the only white male there. Discussions were…aggravating. The professor had a habit of leading discussion by asking a barrage of questions…all leading up to “proving” a point he had in mind from the very beginning, > \*\* Oh my god! He employed the Socratic Method??? How dare he! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/51 "2003-09-17T19:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bruce\_Daddy \* > \*\*I once had a writing class that wasn’t. The “professor” would hand out leftist propoganda everyday and we would “discuss” it. I finally gave up and just started writing papers about how my male friends made me a pig and gave me a degrading attitude toward women. I started getting As. 😃 \*\* I had a writing professor every bit as liberal as yours, but not nearly as shitheaded. He was a communist, in fact, and he made the class interesting for an Adam Smith capitalist such as myself. We had plenty of interesting in-class discussions about how badly the college administration was screwing up and screwing us over, and he gave us topics narrow enough to be inspiring but broad enough to allow for plenty of creative interpretation. Of course, one topic was a reaction to a set of essays written on economic topics (saw that one coming, didn’t you?). The selection was in no way biased: It included excerpts from _The Wealth of Nations_ and _The Communist Manifesto_, not to mention one particularly well-written piece by the Friedans. I, being an interested observer of human behavior and a general smartass, decided to use my paper to assault Communism in theory and practice. I noted the obvious failures (the USSR and China), the theoretical shortcomings (going back to Locke’s definition of liberty as security in one’s possessions), and the fact that every Communist nation ever established has developed a rigid class system kept in place by a brutal combination of confiscatory taxation and repressive laws. I cited everything, I made cogent conclusions from relevent data, and I interpreted the text instead of parroting it. I got an A. But he was a good teacher. YMMV. **gobear** : I agree with you completely. History must be studied `in the round,’ a difficult topic to master. Just looking at Dead White Guys (traditional HS history) or economic factors (neo-Communist college history) or the EEE-vils of Everyone but The Opressed (neo-shithead college history) will lead to moronic conclusions and a very biased view of the world. I think, all things considered, history is a very easy thing to teach badly and a very hard thing to teach well, simply because all things must be considered. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/52 "2003-09-17T19:51:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > You know what? It’s all important. Thomas Jefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemings is important, but so is the Second Continental Congress. Sally Hemings is not even in the same league as the Continental Congress when it comes to importance. Sally Hemings is tabloid fodder dressed up as history. mhendo > [@](#): > > Because some people are giving the strong impression that they would be happy with a 1950s-style litany of explorers, presidents, and generals. And who would those people be? ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/53 "2003-09-17T19:53:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > \*\*Oh my god! He employed the Socratic Method??? How dare he! \*\* Easy there, Tiny. What’s the point of using a specific pedagogic approach if you do so poorly? I’m sure he could have had as much success beating me with a stick with the words “White people suck!” printed on it. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/54 "2003-09-17T19:53:59Z")
As a historian myself, this kind of thing outrages me. History is not made up of the actions of “Evil White Men” or “Noble Native Americans” or “Innocent Opressed Black Folks”. History is the study of people, period. Good, bad, noble, evil, etc… Understand people and you’ll understand history. Did Jefferson fuck a slave? Maybe, he was human, humans do things like that. Is that liaison more important than his contributions to the DOI and the formation of the United States? Not by a long chalk. Can it help you understand Jefferson, the man, as a context for the noble words in the DOI? Absolutely. Abraham Lincoln’s attitudes on race would get him branded a racist today. In his time they were slightly progressive, moreso from necessity than from ideals, IMHO, but the effect was the same. Does this mean we should judge Abe by the standards of todays society and find him wanting? No, because where he was is a point on the continum that leads to our present society and culture, without passing that point we never would have gotten to this one. There are two huge faults with PC driven history as it is taught today. First, it strives more than anytying to place blame without attempting to understand the society and culture of the times in question. Slavery is the perfect example of this. Maud, I suggest you bring up the following facts and see how your professor reacts: 2-4% of slaveholders in the pre Civil War South were black themselves. The slave trade was made possible by Black tribes in Africa enslaving one another and then selling the captives to white traders for the voyage to the Americas. Hell, on that note, since slavery is such a “monsterous evil” ( something I agree with, BTW ) , ask him why nobody says anything about the black on black slave trade in places like the Sudan that exists to this very day. These facts tend to make the PC crowd uncomfortable because their isn’t a nice, simple white man to blame, [sarcasm]and we all know, without blame, where does that leave us? God forbid we actually try to understand the people involved as people and not steriotypes.[/sarcasm] The second huge fault with PC history is that it attempts to apply early 21st century morals and cultural norms upon everyone everywhere throughout history. Unfortunately, it dosen’t work that way. Acording to the PC crowd, anyone who owned slaves was automatically “evil”. This simply isn’t true, again, it’s using a one dimentional cardboard cutout steriotype to avoid having to think about people as people. The real root of this thinking, IMO, is that most PC historians are affraid to face the fact that they are human too, and have all of the weaknesses of the historical figures that they smugly hold themselves above. It takes real personal moral courage to embrace the truth: “There but for the grace of God go I” when studying a Hitler or a Quantrill or a Calley On preview: What Gobear said also. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/55 "2003-09-17T20:12:21Z")
Just Google’d [Pueblo Revolt](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Pueblo+Revolt&btnG=Google+Search). First thing turned up is a first hand account from 1860: > [@](#): > > Letter of the governor and captain-general, Don Antonio de Otermin, from New Mexico, in which he gives him a full account of what has happened to him since the day the Indians surrounded him. [September 8, 1680.] > > MY VERY REVEREND FATHER, Sir, and friend, most beloved Fray Francisco de Ayeta: The time has come when, with tears in my eyes and deep sorrow in my heart, I commence to give an account of the lamentable tragedy, such as has never before happened in the world, which has occurred in this miserable kingdom and holy custodia, His divine Majesty having thus permitted it because of my grievous sins. Before beginning my narration, I desire, as one obligated and grateful, to give your reverence the thanks due for the demonstrations of affection and kindness which you have given in your solicitude in ascertaining and inquiring for definite notices about both my life and those of the rest in this miserable kingdom, in the midst of persistent reports which had been circulated of the deaths of myself and the others, and for sparing neither any kind of effort nor large expenditures. For this, only Heaven can reward your reverence, though I do not doubt that his Majesty (may God keep him) will do so. > > After I sent my last letter to your reverence by the maese de campo, Pedro de Leiva, while the necessary things were being made ready alike for the escort and in the way of provisions, for the most expeditious dispatch of the returning wagons and their guards, as your reverence had enjoined me, I received information that a plot for a general uprising of the Christian Indians was being formed and was spreading rapidly. This was wholly contrary to the existing peace and tranquillity in this miserable kingdom, not only among the Spaniards and natives, but even on the part of the heathen enemy, for it had been a long time since they had done us any considerable damage. It was my misfortune that I learned of it on the eve of the day set for the beginning of the said uprising, and though I immediately, at that instant, notified the lieutenant general on the lower river and all the other alcaldes mayores-so that they could take every care and precaution against whatever might occur, and so that they could make every effort to guard and protect the religious ministers and the temples-the cunning and cleverness of the rebels were such, and so great, that my efforts were of little avail. To this was added a certain degree of negligence by reason of the report of the uprising not having been given entire credence, as is apparent from the ease with which they captured and killed both those who were escorting some of the religious, as well as some citizens in their houses, and, particularly, in the efforts that they made to prevent my orders to the lieutenant general passing through. This was the place where most of the forces of the kingdom were, and from which I could expect some help, but of three orders which I sent to the said lieutenant general, not one reached his hands. The first messenger was killed and the others did not pass beyond Santo Domingo, because of their having encountered on the road the certain notice of the deaths of the religious who were in that convent, and of the alcalde mayor, some other guards, and six more Spaniards whom they captured on that road. Added to this is the situation of this kingdom which, as your reverence is aware, makes it so easy for the said [Indian] rebels to carry out their evil designs, for it is entirely composed of estancias, quite distant from one another… Continued at [PBS - Archives of the West](http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/one/pueblo.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/56 "2003-09-17T20:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > But **he** was a good teacher. YMMV. Well there’s the problem. Mine was a woman. d:r ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/57 "2003-09-17T20:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by silenus \* > \*\*Your defense of leftist ideologs is typical of what can be found in just about every university in America. They all claim to be unbaised, and point to the examples of their “fairness” in grading. (Why, some of my best friends are minority-group-of-your-choice.) The point is that the classes are so repressive and dogmatic in tone that dissent is suppressed and debate is stifled. TA’s are the worst. Professors sometimes have some perspective on things, and may be open to debate. TA’s, however, are young, new to their ideals, and dogmatically inflexible to the nth degree. I have yet to meet one that would tolerate the slightest dissent from their obviously divinely-inspired position on any subject. > > If you are different, then you are truly unique. \*\* Firstly, you were the one who implied that you had failed a course because you were an asshole. Don’t blame me for making the obvious inference. Second, nice use of evidence there, Dean’s boy. Is your conclusion about what goes on in “just about every university on America” based on your own exhaustive studies, or did you just get it from your Ann Coulter reading list? I made no claim that course content was all completely objective. If you got through college and grad school believing that complete objectivity is even possible, maybe you need to do some more study. Sure, teachers–whether liberal or conservative–are going to have their own interpretations of the issues, and are going to convey those interpretations to the students. But objectivity of content is not the same as fairness in grading, or a willingness to listen to all sides in class discussion. If you did indeed have professors and/or TAs who where unwilling to listen to any viewpoint but their own, then they weren’t very good teachers. But your general ranting strikes me as altogether too anti-intellectual, whiny and self-serving. Your use of the “my best friends are…” accusation is completely irrelevant. All i was doing was presenting my own experience, rather than making broad and unsubstantiated generalizations like you. And i simply used my experience to suggest that your experience may not be the only possible one. I made no claim for all universities, or all history departments, and i conceded that are certainly are some bad, ideologically-driven teachers around. You say “If you are different, you are truly unique.” Really? I am the only TA in the whole of the United States willing to tolerate differences of opinion? You must have done some pretty impresive sampling to come to that conclusion. Your generalizations are ridiculous enough in the first place; when you then claim that they apply to everyone in the nation except me, i’m not sure whether to be flattered, or to call your bullshit. **Weirddave** , as far as content and significance goes, i agree with virtually everything you say. I certainly don’t think that Jefferson’s relations with Sally Hemmings should detract from his contributions to American history, and i have little time for those who unreflectively label him a racist because he had slaves. Anyone who’s read Jefferson’s writings knows that he was morally and intellectually conflicted over the issue of slavery. Similarly, i think it’s pointless and intellectually simplistic to say that Lincoln was a racist just because our own societal views have changed in the last 140 years. Context is important. I do have a couple of problems, however, with the points you make. Firstly, it’s worth remembering the context in which modern historical writing and teaching takes place which, for many Americans, is still a context in which folks like Jefferson and Lincoln are often portrayed as unambiguously good, noble, and heroic. Much of the recent spate of so-called PC history attempts to paint these men as real, living human beings, not simply as idols or deities to be worshipped. I think that’s a good thing, although it can sometimes err on the side of condemnation in an attempt to make up for past inaccuracies. Secondly, opposition to “PC history” often sets up something of a straw man. I can’t claim to know exactly how every professor teaches about slavery, but i do know that most of the recent scholarship on the Atlantic slave trade is very clear about the role of Africans in perpetuating the institution of slavery. And recent studies of antebellum slavery in America do not slight or ignore the issue of blacks who owned slaves. I would expect the latter point to be examined in a study of slavery in America, although ommission of the former might be excusable if the course were focused specifically on slavery _within_ the United States. It should not, however, be ommitted from a course on the international slave trade. And i think your point about the current African slave trade is a little unfair. Yes, it’s evil. Yes, something should be done about it. It would certainly be relevant to a course on modern Africa, or even a course on modern attitudes to race in America. But is it really necessary to a history of US antebellum slavery? I also disagree with your assessment that all slaveowners are considered objectively evil by current historians. I’m sure that there are some who think like that, but the dominant strand of analysis among the scholars who actually write articles and books on the issue is one that allows much more room for indecision, ambiguity, and complexity among the slaveowners. Your final paragraph about fear on imperfection is an interesting one. No doubt it might be true for some “PC” historians, but no more so than for those who insist in hanging on to an outmoded hagiographic style of history because exposing flaws might somehow paint America as a less-than-perfect place. I think it’s anti-intellectual and unproductive to simply focus on “evil white men” in history courses. But i also get irritated at those who focus on the alleged negativity of college history professors and courses, while ignoring the glossed-over, flag-waving version of history that gets so much attention in American public life. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/58 "2003-09-18T22:37:49Z")
Well, it’s been over 24 hours now. Just goes to show, i guess, that an attempt at calm, rational debate will kill some threads stone dead. Why am i not surprised? ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/59 "2003-09-18T23:47:16Z")
Well, **mhendo** , this IS The Pit and not Great Debates. **Muad’dib** wanted to rant and vent some steam, not rationally discuss the issue. So I’ll help. Damn required courses and slanted professors. My physics professor was so biased that he refused to even consider the evidence for Scalar Weapons. If only I had had one of those Olde Timey killin’ guns from the early 20th Century I would have shown him a thing or two. But nooo, I had to learn the party line about magnetic fields and stuff. Bah, all propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041/60 "2003-09-19T00:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BoringDad \* > **Well, mhendo, this IS The Pit and not Great Debates. Muad’dib wanted to rant and vent some steam, not rationally discuss the issue.** Sure, that’s true. But i’ve always felt that if you don’t even have the guts to return to your own threads and defend your position when people contradict you or argue with you, then you obviously don’t really have much invested in the issue. Also, despite the fact that **Muad’Dib** obviously had little interest in a rational discussion, it doesn’t mean that those are forbidden in the pit. I suppose i should just stick to GD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-american-history-class-and-want-to-drop-it/202041.md?page=4)