# I Hate My Bank SO Much **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546 "2011-07-19T04:30:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/141 "2011-07-24T18:57:15Z")
Until federal law recently forced them to stop, many banks had _mandatory_ overdraft protection on checking accounts, meaning that you could not opt out of it, and meaning that if you miscalculated your balance, or your bank told you an incorrect balance, or your checks were processed out of order, the bank would simply make the money available for you, and then charge you for it, and as **Evil Captor** and others have pointed out, the way they charged you for it was designed to maximize their overdraft fees, compounding fee on top of fee until that original miscalculation has now cost you hundreds of dollars. Characterizing this as a reasonable business practice seems indefensible to me. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/142 "2011-07-24T23:15:02Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Characterizing this as a reasonable business practice seems indefensible to me. The bank doesn’t write the checks, the customer does. No one is forcing people to do this. It is your (meaning the customer) responsibility to keep an accurate accounting of the funds you have in your account, and to stay within those funds. Banks disclose fees for their services when you open an account. Don’t agree with it? Go elsewhere. Don’t want to pay the service charge, then don’t write bad checks. Or don’t bank at a bank that has courtesy pay. Or learn how to balance a checkbook. Or open a line of credit. Or keep a cash padding in the account. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/143 "2011-07-25T02:36:18Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I would recommend against keeping large sums of cash (maybe this marks me out as being riff-raff, but I consider $40-50 to be a large sum of cash) in the glovebox of your car unless you are 100% certain your car will never be broken into. The few times we’ve had a break-in, the thieves ransacked 1) the ashtray, 2) the glovebox, and 3) the stereo, when we had an aftermarket stereo. > > That said, keeping emergency cash around is of course a very good idea. For those of us who have cellphones - tucking a folded $20 bill behind the battery cover of your phone is a great place to put the money. It’s always on you, but you’ll inevitably forget it’s there until you need it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/144 "2011-07-25T02:45:51Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > The bank doesn’t write the checks, the customer does. No one is forcing people to do this. It is your (meaning the customer) responsibility to keep an accurate accounting of the funds you have in your account, and to stay within those funds. > > Banks disclose fees for their services when you open an account. Don’t agree with it? Go elsewhere. > > Don’t want to pay the service charge, then don’t write bad checks. Or don’t bank at a bank that has courtesy pay. Or learn how to balance a checkbook. Or open a line of credit. Or keep a cash padding in the account. …or vote into office officials who will demand transparent price and fee schedules from banks. You know, it could happen. Humans are fallible: I make a financial error once every 7 years or so. Usually without impact or penalty, but not always. Since most people don’t have a good grasp of their risk of error (which is a function not only of personalty, but life’s changing circumstances) it’s a great potential profit center for banks, absent common sense regulation. > [@](#): > > Banks disclose fees for their services when you open an account. Don’t agree with it? Go elsewhere. This is laughable. Banks change their policies all the time. And switching banks carries a substantial nuisance cost. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/145 "2011-07-25T02:46:02Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Banks disclose fees for their services when you open an account. Don’t agree with it? Go elsewhere. > > Don’t want to pay the service charge, then don’t write bad checks. Or don’t bank at a bank that has courtesy pay. Or learn how to balance a checkbook. Or open a line of credit. Or keep a cash padding in the account. You are defending a system in which banks are able to charge hundreds of dollars in fees for a single mistake in someone’s checking account. You are additionally defending the banks for inaccurately reporting customers’ balances. Presumably because you think you are smart enough and organized enough (or maybe you are just rich enough) that this will never be an issue for you. Some of your suggestions are nearly comical – “just have more money.” Or, “just use a credit card.” Or, “just go elsewhere.” Yeah, OK. Sure, I’ll just go find the bank that doesn’t have predatory overdraft practices. And by “bank” I mean “sock drawer”. Although again, recent federal laws (which were surely unnecessary, since these practices were totally reasonable and OK) have eliminated some of these issues, which is why I was able to get rid of overdraft protection on my credit union account. I’m certainly not suggesting, by the way, that people shouldn’t accurately track their expenditures and take responsibility for their finances. However, I am suggesting that people are not perfect, and when you aren’t quite sure if your accounting is right so you call the bank to confirm your balance, you should be able to trust that the number the bank reports to you is accurate. I mean, really: “You should balance your own checkbook so it doesn’t matter if the bank lies to you about your balance”. That’s what you’re going with, huh? ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/146 "2011-07-25T14:45:59Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > You are defending a system in which banks are able to charge hundreds of dollars in fees for a single mistake in someone’s checking account. You are additionally defending the banks for inaccurately reporting customers’ balances. Presumably because you think you are smart enough and organized enough (or maybe you are just rich enough) that this will never be an issue for you. Some of your suggestions are nearly comical – “just have more money.” Or, “just use a credit card.” Or, “just go elsewhere.” > > Yeah, OK. Sure, I’ll just go find the bank that doesn’t have predatory overdraft practices. And by “bank” I mean “sock drawer”. > > Although again, recent federal laws (which were surely unnecessary, since these practices were totally reasonable and OK) have eliminated some of these issues, which is why I was able to get rid of overdraft protection on my credit union account. > > I’m certainly not suggesting, by the way, that people shouldn’t accurately track their expenditures and take responsibility for their finances. However, I am suggesting that people are not perfect, and when you aren’t quite sure if your accounting is right so you call the bank to confirm your balance, you should be able to trust that the number the bank reports to you is accurate. I mean, really: “You should balance your own checkbook so it doesn’t matter if the bank lies to you about your balance”. That’s what you’re going with, huh? You may want to check your cut & paste function. It’s changing words. What I said was: \*The bank doesn’t write the checks, the customer does. No one is forcing people to do this. It is your (meaning the customer) responsibility to keep an accurate accounting of the funds you have in your account, and to stay within those funds. Banks disclose fees for their services when you open an account. Don’t agree with it? Go elsewhere. Don’t want to pay the service charge, then don’t write bad checks. Or don’t bank at a bank that has courtesy pay. Or learn how to balance a checkbook. Or open a line of credit. Or keep a cash padding in the account. \* I’m sorry you haven’t been able to figure out how to use Google well enough to find a bank with no overdraft fees. I’ll help you. ING charges .031% interest on the amount overdrawn rather than an overdraft fee. Here’s a link: [http://home.ingdirect.com/products/products.asp?s=ElectricOrange](http://home.ingdirect.com/products/products.asp?s=ElectricOrange) ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/147 "2011-07-25T15:07:39Z")
Anyone calling their bank to check their balance is an absolute fool. Even if they tell you correctly what your balance is that second, how do you know what items have not yet cleared? The only way to know for sure what your balance is, is to keep up with it yourself by keeping an accurate register. Additionally, anyone that doesn’t have a credit card is giving away free money. You people do realize that the credit card companies pay you to use their card, right? If you don’t want to pay any interest then just pay it off every month. By the way, keep a register for your credit card as well, so you know how much is outstanding on that at any given point in time. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/148 "2011-07-25T15:11:21Z")
Do you guys have to pay an annual fee for credit cards? The majority of them in Australia charge such a fee, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/149 "2011-07-25T15:12:40Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > Anyone calling their bank to check their balance is an absolute fool. Even if they tell you correctly what your balance is that second, how do you know what items have not yet cleared? The only way to know for sure what your balance is, is to keep up with it yourself by keeping an accurate register. The accurate register does not take into account hold times for deposited checks to clear. The time it takes to clear is not always obvious, so you may have a deposit recorded in your register, but not yet available to access the funds. My bank does print when the funds will be available on the receipt, which does help. However, sometimes unexpected delays can occur. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/150 "2011-07-25T16:26:52Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Do you guys have to pay an annual fee for credit cards? The majority of them in Australia charge such a fee, unfortunately. I have a number of credit cards (I don’t remember–maybe six, I only use two of them regularly) and none of them have any annual fee associated with them. The only cards I could think of with annual fees are American Express (which isn’t really a credit card, anyway), some cards with low interest rates (in exchange for a low interest rate, you pay an annual fee), and cards for consumers with a patchy credit history. I find that, personally, there is very little reason not to pay everything you possibly can with your credit card. It affords more protection for your purchases, many cards come with rewards programs that amount to about 1% cash back, you can track your purchases much better, you build your credit, etc. _As long as you pay your cards off every month_ (which is easy enough to do with all the online bill paying options), I see no downside to credit cards. I just think of them as a more protected link to my checking account. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/151 "2011-07-25T16:36:12Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > Anyone calling their bank to check their balance is an absolute fool. Even if they tell you correctly what your balance is that second, how do you know what items have not yet cleared? The only way to know for sure what your balance is, is to keep up with it yourself by keeping an accurate register. > > Additionally, anyone that doesn’t have a credit card is giving away free money. You people do realize that the credit card companies pay you to use their card, right? If you don’t want to pay any interest then just pay it off every month. By the way, keep a register for your credit card as well, so you know how much is outstanding on that at any given point in time. What’s a “register”? Just go online and look at your balance and purchases/debits. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/152 "2011-07-25T16:41:07Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The accurate register does not take into account hold times for deposited checks to clear. The time it takes to clear is not always obvious, so you may have a deposit recorded in your register, but not yet available to access the funds. > > My bank does print when the funds will be available on the receipt, which does help. However, sometimes unexpected delays can occur. An accurate register specifies whether a transaction has cleared or not. Quicken makes it pretty easy to do so. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/153 "2011-07-25T16:42:36Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > What’s a “register”? Just go online and look at your balance and purchases/debits. I’m unclear why you are putting quotes around register. Do you think I have misspelled it or something? Going online is no better than calling a bank. Uncleared transactions won’t show up. Online banking is great, but you can not use it as an accurate representation of your balance for anything other than right that second. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/154 "2011-07-25T17:29:25Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > I’m unclear why you are putting quotes around register. Do you think I have misspelled it or something? > > Going online is no better than calling a bank. Uncleared transactions won’t show up. Online banking is great, but you can not use it as an accurate representation of your balance for anything other than right that second. And even that, as I discovered, is not an accurate representation of what’s going on “right that second” when you’re caught in the limbo of a weekend. Basically, when I got nailed with overdrafts, it happened that I deposited money over the weekend, and then made a couple of purchases afterwards. Because of the order those transactions were processed in, even though my deposit covered all my purchases and my available balance said my money was available to me, all four transactions got hit with overdraft fees because, on Monday, the debits were processed from from high-to-low, and then the credit was added. So: Friday, available balance: $50 Friday night, I deposit $200 cash. Available balance shows: $250 Saturday, I purchase something for $10. Available balance: $240 Saturday night, I purchase a McDonald’s meal for $5. Available balance: $235 Sunday morning, I purchase a breakfast for $10. Available balance: $225 Sunday afternoon, I purchase some books for $60. Available balance: $165 All through this process, my account balance reflected what I thought was the correct amount. Even if you think I was stupid for thinking that $200 I deposited on Friday would be instantaneously available to me (which my ATM receipt said it was), the chronological order of events should only bounce the last transaction for $60. I mean, these ATMs have time stamps, they know _exactly_ when the transaction occurred. And, sure, maybe I should have kept that $200 on me, but I wanted to get it in the bank ASAP. The only unexpected transaction for me was the last one for the books. That I hadn’t been planning on. The others were normal day-to-day expenses that would have been covered by my $50 available balance, anyway. However, here’s what happened in the banks eyes. Monday morning comes and everything that happened between Friday end-of-business and Monday start-of-business counts as a single time period for accounting purposes. Debits are deducted first, high-to-low (not chronological) then credits are counted. So, let’s do the bank accounting: $50 available balance -$60 (Sunday’s last transaction) -$35 overdraft fee -$10 (Saturday morning) -$35 overdraft fee -$10 (Sunday morning) -$35 overdraft fee -$5 (Saturday night) -$35 overdraft fee -$276 balance +$200 deposit -$76 balance What the fuck? Now, do you really think that’s fair? If you think I’m exaggerating my example, I’m not. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but that was the gist of what happened. [Here’s a source that explains it, too.](http://schubertlawfirm.com/practice-areas/debit-card-overdraft-fees/) > [@](#): > > When you purchase an item with a debit card, banks have the ability to determine instantaneously whether your account has sufficient funds for the transaction. Instead of refusing to allow insufficient-funds transactions to go forward at the point-of-sale, banks have instituted and promoted “overdraft protection” as a beneficial service for their customers. Through “overdraft protection,” banks allow a purchase to go forward despite the lack of funds in the customer’s account. The customer is then assessed a fee for each overdraft transaction. > > Banks do not process debit-card charges at the point of sale, automatically deducting the amount of the transaction from your account. Rather, after midnight, banks take all debit items presented for payment during the preceding business day and subtract them from the customer’s account balance. This process is called “posting.” > > Rather than processing the debit items in the chronological order in which the debit card was used, certain banks have posted the items from “high-to-low,” meaning that the most expensive debit transaction is deducted from your account first and the least expensive item is deducted from your account last. Now that I know, I won’t make that mistake again (and my financial position is such that I thankfully am not playing with such close margins), but I have to admit that system is non-obvious, and I completely feel for people and understand their outrage for getting screwed by such non-obvious (and, frankly, illogical) accounting. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/155 "2011-07-25T17:42:34Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > I’m unclear why you are putting quotes around register. Do you think I have misspelled it or something? > > Going online is no better than calling a bank. Uncleared transactions won’t show up. Online banking is great, but you can not use it as an accurate representation of your balance for anything other than right that second. Of course I can use it as an accurate representation. There is a list of pending transactions that haven’t cleared yet. I just subtract those from my available balance. There is no need for this mysterious “register” you speak of. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/156 "2011-07-25T17:55:21Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > I’m unclear why you are putting quotes around register. Do you think I have misspelled it or something? > > Going online is no better than calling a bank. Uncleared transactions won’t show up. Online banking is great, but you can not use it as an accurate representation of your balance for anything other than right that second. Well, I suppose I don’t write many checks, so it’s easy for me to keep a mental tab of that. But my bank most certainly _does_ show pending debits and credits, though I realize not all banks do this. I’m 25 and I’ve never in my life used a physical register. Since I was 17 and got my first bank account, I’ve kept up with what’s happening in my account online. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/157 "2011-07-25T18:08:36Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Of course I can use it as an accurate representation. There is a list of pending transactions that haven’t cleared yet. I just subtract those from my available balance. There is no need for this mysterious “register” you speak of. The list of pending transactions doesn’t include any checks that you may have written but haven’t cleared yet. Nor does it include any future electronic payments that you have authorized but have not yet been made. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/158 "2011-07-25T18:11:30Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > The list of pending transactions doesn’t include any checks that you may have written but haven’t cleared yet. Nor does it include any future electronic payments that you have authorized but have not yet been made. Ok, that makes more sense. I don’t write any “real” checks; I only send online checks, so they are subtracted from my balance immediately. As for electronic payments, I do it manually, so that’s not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/159 "2011-07-25T18:14:42Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > The list of pending transactions doesn’t include any checks that you may have written but haven’t cleared yet. Nor does it include any future electronic payments that you have authorized but have not yet been made. Sure, it shows you, but it also doesn’t tell you what order they’ll be accounted in, which is a big reason for problems some people have had with this, and the reason for that class-action lawsuit I linked to above. Like I said, I believe all this has been taken care of with the new legislation, but those practices did exist where a reasonable person would get nailed for fees because a later transaction would be posted earlier than a transaction that happened a day before. I mean, is it really crazy to think that an ATM debit time-stamped on Saturday should post before an ATM debit time-stamped on Sunday? ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546/160 "2011-07-25T18:20:24Z")
Nevermind, I read the post wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-my-bank-so-much/589546.md?page=9)