# I hate the oppressive police culture in the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 15, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534 "2014-09-15T04:14:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/101 "2014-09-15T22:26:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …is there? There’s no reason there would be, but who knows? People get detained for nothing all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/102 "2014-09-15T22:33:08Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > There’s no reason there would be, but who knows? People get detained for nothing all the time. So either you don’t _know_ if you’ve committed any felonies lately (which just raises further questions about your mental well-being), or you’re just paranoid that the police are just itching to lock you up for no reason whatsoever, in which case I imagine that they could think of something whether or not you showed them your ID. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/103 "2014-09-15T23:08:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So either you don’t _know_ if you’ve committed any felonies lately (which just raises further questions about your mental well-being), or you’re just paranoid that the police are just itching to lock you up for no reason whatsoever, in which case I imagine that they could think of something whether or not you showed them your ID. So you think no one is falsely arrested? Wow. I don’t refuse to allow the police to investigate me because I fear being arrested. It’s because I have civil rights. Use them or lose them. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/104 "2014-09-15T23:13:34Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Okay. > > Civil rights actually matter to me. If I am walking down the street and an armed thug stops me under threat of being shot and demands that I waste a single moment of my life interacting with them, that is absolutely an imposition. > > I don’t follow laws just for the sake of being an obedient little sheep. There are so many trivial nonsensical laws that I don’t know a single person above pre-school age that has not committed a jailable offense at some point in their lives. Some laws are stupid. Cops are “thugs”? What friggin planet are you on! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/105 "2014-09-16T00:55:11Z")
The Navy spied on computers of tons of civilians in Washington state looking for Child porn. Luckily the (one I believe) conviction found was overturned. [http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Appeals-court-overturns-child-porn-conviction-274987771.html](http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Appeals-court-overturns-child-porn-conviction-274987771.html) Shit like this is much worse than police asking for an ID. The NSA tapping into everyone’s phones and computers. They aren’t going to stop at terrorism. They’ll say they need to protect kids. Then violent crimes will be investigated this way. Soon victimless crimes (prostitution, drug use) could be investigated that way. Also the militarization of the police, and the fact that a sizable (and growing it seems) number of police act like insular thugs who have zero concern or respect for the public are far bigger issues. Also the fact that our bloated legal system requires criminalization of day to day behavior to justify its bloated existence. So being mentally ill, substance use, making bad decisions as a kid, etc. can all create a permanent record that follows you for life, not to mention tons of fines. The more behavior that are crimes, the more fines you collect and the more you justify hiring more people who work in the legal system. Point is, there are many reasons to dislike our growing police state other than being asked for an ID. I’ve never been asked for an ID when I wasn’t a suspect in a crime or when I wasn’t engaged in traffic violations. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/106 "2014-09-16T04:25:20Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Store employees are asking for my ID to confirm my age, not to see if there is a warrant to arrest me. It’s not a subtle difference, fool. Don’t start going there. Use the Pit for names. This will be the only reminder in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/107 "2014-09-16T05:16:05Z")
> **[Parents’ house seized after son’s drug bust | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/03/us/philadelphia-drug-bust-house-seizure/)** > > The rare moments Christos Sourovelis can take a break from running his own painting business, he can be found toiling away on his family’s dream house in the suburbs of Philadelphia. > [@](#): > > The nightmare began when police showed up at the house and arrested their 22-year-old son, Yianni, on drug charges – $40 worth of heroin. Authorities say he was selling drugs out of the home. The Sourvelises say they had no knowledge of any involvement their son might have had with drugs. > A month-and-a-half later police came back – this time to seize their house, forcing the Sourvelises and their children out on the street that day. Authorities came with the electric company in tow to turn off the power and even began locking the doors with screws, the Sourvelises say. Authorities won’t comment on the exact circumstances because of pending litigation regarding the case. Note that $40 of heroin is less than some addicts use in one day. Well this thread just got derailed by people focusing on the ID thing, which was one part of a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/108 "2014-09-16T05:43:27Z")
> [@grude](#): > > … > > The USA is SWARMING with cops, cops that love to harass random pedestrians. In other countries you see cops walking the beat, they pass obvious stumbling drunks and as long as they aren’t assaulting people or committing other “real” crimes(sorry but being intoxicated in public view is a false crime, fuck what you think) they say good day and make it home safe. In the USA they would taser them and take them to jail. > > … Do we really want drunks running amok in our streets? Get them off the streets as much for their safety as ours. And jail, well, that’s where the drunk tanks are as far as I know. I’m not aware of any police department with a policy of using the taser before taking a drunk off to jail. Which department is that? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/109 "2014-09-16T07:21:07Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I’m 49, also lived in metropolitan areas. I have been stopped a few times in my teens-young-adulthood. > > Can’t really complain. I either doing stuff or planning to do stuff that wasn’t quite exactly legal. I think this is really the crux of it. 99.9999999999% of the time, if a cop stops you, they have the legal authority to do so. And on top of that, a case could be made that the person they’re stopping did do something wrong. I’ve been stopped by the police six times in my life… three times for speeding, twice for changing lanes without using a signal, and once where it could be described as an ID check. The thing with the last one is that I was technically trespassing at the time, so while I wasn’t “doing anything,” the cop had every right to ask me why I was there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/110 "2014-09-16T09:29:30Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Note that $40 of heroin is less than some addicts use in one day. > > Well this thread just got derailed by people focusing on the ID thing, which was one part of a whole. The cops didn’t just decide to seize the house for shits and giggles. They did it because the civil forfeiture law which was voted into effect by the people and their elected representatives allowed it. Again, you’re blaming the cops for enforcing laws they didn’t create, so really your anger is misdirected here, and would be better focused into campaigning against those kind of laws - but I suppose you don’t even vote either. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/111 "2014-09-16T09:37:24Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Singapore. I have a nationally issued identity card (mandatory for all citizens I believe), but it is not mandatory to carry it with you. I have it with me now (a driver’s licence also works as official ID except when performing national service, but I carry both my ID card and driver’s licence). > > I’ve never been stopped by a policeman who demanded to see my ID. Heck, I’ve never been stopped by a policeman ever. > > I didn’t see any policemen today. Well scratch that, I saw a police car drive by, there might have been a policeman inside but I wouldn’t know. > > In my 32 years I’ve only ever went to a police station to update the address on my identity card. That about sums up my interaction with the police. You sure about not carrying ID with you? I know that work permit . employment pass must carry at all times. My understanding was / is that we must carry at all times (I am PR) I am also in Singapore - I have been asked for ID twice. Once I was with a group of professionals in a cemetary parking lot late at night - I just fudged and didn’t show. The other time I was walking at 2am in no shoes after an argument with wife - that time I didn’t have with me, and didn’t have any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/112 "2014-09-16T12:11:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Moral of the story; Sometimes it’s a lot easier for everyone involved to just show the clerk your receipt and move on with your life. So where will _you_ draw the line? What if the store clerk insists on searching your car? What if a cop stops by your home and insists on searching it without a warrant, and threatens to arrest you if you don’t let him do so? How much intrusion are you willing to put up with before you stand up and say “no”? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/113 "2014-09-16T12:31:36Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > So where will _you_ draw the line? > > What if the store clerk insists on searching your car? That would be well outside the bounds of a store clerk to insist upon. > [@](#): > > What if a cop stops by your home and insists on searching it without a warrant, and threatens to arrest you if you don’t let him do so? That would be well outside the bounds of a police officer to insist upon. > [@](#): > > How much intrusion are you willing to put up with before you stand up and say “no”? Well outside the bounds of the intruder to insist upon. Or are you really saying there’s no difference between warrantless searches and a store clerk asking to see your receipt? Or are store clerks the tool which **They** will use when the police state is imposed? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/114 "2014-09-16T13:26:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That would be well outside the bounds of a store clerk to insist upon. So a store clerk insisting on searching your car is out of line, but a store clerk insisting on seeing a receipt for an item you own is not? Remember, in the story I linked to, the store clerk physically stopped the customer from driving away. > [@Smapti](#): > > That would be well outside the bounds of a police officer to insist upon. So an officer insisting on searching your home without a warrant is out of line, but an officer insisting on seeing your ID is not? Remember, in the story I linked to, the officer _insisted_ (not merely requested) to see the man’s ID and threatened him with arrest if he did not comply. We agree a _request_ for ID is reasonable, but why do you feel a _demand_, backed by threat of arrest, is also reasonable? > [@Smapti](#): > > Or are you really saying there’s no difference between warrantless searches and a store clerk asking to see your receipt? I have absolutely no problem with a store clerk _asking_ to see a receipt. But in the story I linked to, the store clerk did not merely _ask_; he was physically restraining the customer from leaving the scene, desite having no reasonable basis for suspicion of shoplifting. Why are you OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/115 "2014-09-16T14:05:42Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > So a store clerk insisting on searching your car is out of line, but a store clerk insisting on seeing a receipt for an item you own is not? Remember, in the story I linked to, the store clerk physically stopped the customer from driving away. That’s well in excess of his authority - and it’s a situation that could have been avoided if the customer had shown his receipt in the first place instead of being an asshole about it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/116 "2014-09-16T14:19:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s well in excess of his authority - and it’s a situation that could have been avoided if the customer had shown his receipt in the first place instead of being an asshole about it. It could have also been avoided if the clerk simply followed the law. I’m not sure why you are so quick to dismiss that option? There’s only one person in the story that was an asshole, and I don’t think it was the customer. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/117 "2014-09-16T14:28:22Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It could have also been avoided if the clerk simply followed the law. I’m not sure why you are so quick to dismiss that option? There’s only one person in the story that was an asshole, and I don’t think it was the customer. It’s not against the law to ask to see a receipt. Everything the clerk did beyond that was obviously a product of poor training, which falls on his employers’ back as much as his own, but it doesn’t negate the fact that “OK, here you go” is a much easier response to that question than “ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF SHOPLIFTING?!” You’ll forgive me if I don’t consider overzealous clerks at the department store to be a human rights issue, since, as far as I know, store clerks are not officers of the law, are not expected to be fully abreast of police procedure regarding detention and questioning as part of their minimum wage jobs, and the 4th amendment doesn’t apply to them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/118 "2014-09-16T14:36:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s well in excess of his authority - and it’s a situation that could have been avoided if the customer had shown his receipt in the first place instead of being an asshole about it. Why is he an asshole for not wanting to show his receipt to some officious store clerk? I may as well say the same to you when an officer insists on searching your home wiithout a warrant: just step aside and let him in instead of being an asshole about it. Silently submitting to false claims of authority does nothing to reduce the occurrence of such claims of false authority, and in the long run it emboldens such people. For that cop, it was probably the first time anybody had said to his face “I have identification with me but I will not show it to you;” if people said that to him on a recurring basis, he would probably be more aware of the limits of his authority. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/119 "2014-09-16T14:43:10Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Why is he an asshole for not wanting to show his receipt to some officious store clerk? The store clerk is not being “officious” or evil or trying to aggrandize himself and make himself feel better than anyone. He is _doing his job_ - a job for which he has been paid very little and given little training besides “Ask the guests for their receipt on their way out and make sure they aren’t trying to sneak anything out they haven’t paid for”. There’s no call for getting angry at one when all he’s asking is two seconds of your time. Your privacy is not being invaded in any way, no slippery slope to fascism and Big Brother is beginning because of your brief acquiescence. The Nazis didn’t come to power by asking people for their receipts. The fact that you hear “May I see your receipt, sir?” and your response is “MY RIGHTS ARE BEING VIOLATED, I WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS FALSE ASSERTION OF AUTHORITY!” says more about you than it does about the wage-slave who now has to deal with your sanctimonius bull. > [@](#): > > I may as well say the same to you when an officer insists on searching your home wiithout a warrant: just step aside and let him in instead of being an asshole about it. If you _seriously_ think that being asked to show your receipt at the Wal-Mart is equivalent to a warrantless search of your home by the police - morally, ethically, legally, practically, or in any other sense - then you’re just plain not being a sensible person here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534/120 "2014-09-16T15:08:58Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Completely false, but are you under the impression that “body language” is illegal? Luckily, not yet. It’s called “projection” and you are projecting “everyone in a blue uniform is a thug”. It’s also called “being paranoid around anyone in a blue uniform.” Simple, really: don’t give them an excuse to bother you and they won’t bother you. Thing is, they obiously bother you just by being present. “[A]rmed with guns, a taser, pepper spray, a billy club, and an entire army of backup at their command” is not a civil rights issue, that’s paranoia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-the-oppressive-police-culture-in-the-usa/698534.md?page=7)