# I hate to say this, but.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2001, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824 "2001-04-13T12:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/41 "2001-04-18T13:28:02Z")
I have provided evidence from the FBI that 40% of violent crime is committed by blacks. Are you suggesting that the FBI is purposely over reporting the number of crimes committed by blacks or purposely underreporting the number of crimes committed by whites? Or that police departments across the country are systematically ignoring crimes comitted by whites while making up crimes to convict black people. This seems to me patently ridiculous. I have heard no statistics about how crime breaks down in Cincinatti or what the racial makeup of Cincinatti is. I have heard that of the 15 people who were killed by Cincinatti police : [quote] Of the 15 police intervention deaths involving black males since 1995, 12 of those 15 suspects were armed with deadly weapons," said Fangman, a beat cop and president of the Cincinnati Fraternal Order of Police. “Eight of them were armed with guns in which they shot at our officers or pointed guns at our officers. One was armed with a brick. One was armed with a two-by-four with a cluster of nails on the end of it. And two were armed with automobiles, one in which our officer was dragged to his death.” ;/quote] Do you really think that white people can brandish weapons at police officers with impunity? That the police officer is thinking “that criminal pointing the gun at me is white so I can’t shoot him” Add to this the previous two police killings of black men were done by black officers. The idea that the police shootings in Cincinnatti are being motivated by race is not supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/42 "2001-04-18T13:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > I believe all those people I mentioned in my other post are dead, not because they were criminals, but because they were black. \*\* {i]In 1961, Dr. King told a congregation, “We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can’t keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves.” Continuing with an example reminiscent of Cincinnati, Dr. King said: “Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We’ve got to face that. And we’ve got to do something about our moral standards.”{/i] from today’s [http://www.opinionjournal.com](http://www.opinionjournal.com) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/43 "2001-04-18T13:47:36Z")
the source web sicte doesn’t have a [http://www](http://www). It’s just [opinionjournal.com](http://opinionjournal.com) ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/44 "2001-04-18T13:59:56Z")
puddlegum, the statistics I saw said that 40% of the people identified as feloniously shooting a law enforcement officer were black. Not that 40% of all violent crimes in this nation were perpetrated by blacks. And, just for arguement’s sake, let’s say that 40% of all violent crime is committed by blacks, how does the 100% kill rate properly reflect the demographics? 60% of violent crime in this nation is perpetrated by non-blacks. In order for “black people get shot by cops in the same porpotion that they are criminals” then 60% of people shot by cops should be white. And what of my point that blacks have a reason to be angry over being targeted by police? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/45 "2001-04-18T14:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > Do you really believe 12% of the population is responsible for 40% of the crime? We blacks have been quite busy, haven’t we? Well, I’ve always admired your work ethic, **Biggirl**. 😉 Seriously, all these statistics being bandied back and forth are utterly useless. _There is absolutely no way to know what percentage of crimes are committed by what racial/ethnic groups._ Why do I make such a statement? Simple. Between the facts that (1) a large number of crimes, violent or otherwise, are not reported to the police, (ii) of crimes that are reported, a large number of investigations result in no arrest of a suspect, and (iii) of suspects arrested, a smaller, but still large, number of them are not convicted. All of the statistics being mentioned report the racial makeup of those convicted. There is no evidence presented here or (to my knowledge) in existence that those convicted represent a valid sampling of the racial/ethnic make-up of those who commit crimes. Sua ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/46 "2001-04-18T14:29:11Z")
If you go back and look at the statistics offered by **december** they state that 62% of all people killed by police shootings are white which is almost exactly what you would expect. Whites commit 60% of violent crime and are 62% of people killed by police. Blacks commit 40% of violent crime and are 35% of people killed by police. In light of this information in what way are blacks “targeted” by police? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/47 "2001-04-18T14:42:02Z")
Oh, yea, earlier in this thread: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*some issues re: statistics(snip) However, you cannot make the extrapolation that the prison/jail population data = crimes committed data. > > prison/jail does not include those on probation or those who got away with it. Also it doesn’t field for the number of offenses piece. So, if you had a situation where there were 100 crimes, 80 of which were committed by a single white guy, the other 20 committed by 20 different blacks, you could make the mistaken leap of faith that the blacks were responsible for more crime than whites. See? \*\* but maybe since you’re a guy and a lawyer, they’ll listen to you 🙂 **puddleglum** the point that you seem to be missing from **Biggirl** ’s post, is that “if (roughly) 40% of violent crime is committed by blacks, and (roughly)40% of those shooting cops are black, then **why** is it that **100%** of those shot by cops were black?” Why shouldn’t **that** number reflect those other numbers you’ve bandied about (of course, keeping in mind the objections that I’ve made repeatedly and **Sua** just reaffirmed, that the percentage of **convicted** criminals in no way gives you data to make assumptions about the **actual** percentages of crimes done. Many crimes go unsolved, more go unreported etc.) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/48 "2001-04-18T15:23:35Z")
(addendum) **Biggirl** is referring to the fact that in Cincinnati, **all** the folks shot by cops in the past several years have been black. Hence the feeling they’ve been targeted. according to [this](http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/17/cincinnati.next/index.html), the city is about 43% black, 25% of the cops are black. The young man who was most recently killed was wanted on misdemeanor warrants, mostly traffic related. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/49 "2001-04-18T15:31:55Z")
The most likely reason for the lack of white people being shot in Cincinatti as in most urban areas the percentages of races are different than in the country as a whole. Most inner cities are more than 12% black. In areas that have more than average amount of black people you would expect more than average police shootings of blacks just as in areas that are more white than the average you would expect more white people than average to be shot by police. Also keep in mind than in the last five and a quarter years there have been only fifteen incidents. Such a small number is easily skewed. If one were to look over a longer period of time one could expect a regression toward the mean. One would have to know the amount of violent crime committed by race in Cincinatti to extrapolate what the expected number of police shootings by race should be. In the absence of such numbers any percentage offered would be merely speculative. In the FBI UCR it states that for 1999 half of the reported violent crimes reported ended with an arrest. Unless there is a systematic bias as to how the crimes that are solved are different than the ones that are not solved, it is reasonable to assume that the violent crimes that are solved are representative of all violent crimes in the country. The statistics I have been quoting are not people in jail but people arrested for crimes. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/50 "2001-04-18T15:55:19Z")
but\*\* puddleglum\*\*, even with few numbers of folks being shot by cops, and greater than national average of blacks in the inner city, don’t you find 100% a little uncomfortable? it’s certain that the minority residents of Cincinnati do find it uncomfortable, outrageous etc. You keep on focusing on those stats as if they prove your point. In addition to the issues raised, the numbers you quote do not screen out for individuals (a point I’ve raised before). So if you have 100 crimes committed by 100 people, you may have a case. If, however, you have 100 crimes - 80 of 'em committed by one black guy, and the other 20 committed by 20 white guys, your source will list it as “80% committed by blacks, 20% committed by whites”. In addition, have you checked re: division of crimes urban vs. rural? Because that alone may explain the disparity you think is proof of something - if **most** violent crime occurs in urban vs. rural/suburban environments, then the racial demographics would be different. A great percentage of my states prisoners (Michigan) come from the Detroit area, as does a great percentage of the crime, the demographics of that area would therefore be expected in the demographics of the prisons. So, instead of staring at the FBI stats to try and make whatever point you’re attempting, how about looking at how to deal with **perceived** racism in the police force? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/51 "2001-04-18T16:36:06Z")
If the Cincinatti police went out tomorrow and shot five white guys would that make you feel better? Of course not. My point is that disparities between percentage of population and percentage of people shot by cops does not prove anything. Each shooting must be looked at on an individual basis. If the shootings were unjustified the cops should be prosecuted, if the shootings were justified the cops should be applauded. One of the reasons there is percieved rascism is that statistics such as 12% of the population and 35% of police shooting victims are offered as evidence. One person in this forum called that statistic “downright scary”, when in fact it is completely understandable. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/52 "2001-04-18T16:50:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*You keep on focusing on those stats as if they prove _your point_. In addition to the issues raised, the numbers you quote do not screen out for individuals (_a point_ I’ve raised before). \*\* This discussion might be clearer if each of us came out and stated our point. My point is, the degree of racism in the Cincinnati Police Department is a less serious problem for inner city residents than many other issues, especially black-on-black crime and illiteracy. (Regarding the latter, see some upsetting statistics in Bill O’Reilly’s column at [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,10395,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,10395,00.html) What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/53 "2001-04-18T17:35:44Z")
ok, **puddleglum** - would shooting 5 whites make anyone feel **better**? sheesh. way to miss the point. You can say all you want about ‘looking at the individual circumstances of each shooting’ and what you’ll never be able to do is look at all of those where some one **wasn’t** killed. IOW, _perhaps_ there were individual circumstances in each of those cases, however, can you honestly expect anyone to believe that those were the **only** times that a dangerous individual was apprehended? You kept asking **Biggirl** why blacks feel targeted, she’d answer, and you’d reply with stats about violent crime demographics etc. I work in corrections. as an example of the point that’s being attempted - several years ago, a detective from a nearby rural county came to our center asking questions. There’d been a break in in their county, and he thought that it sounded like a particular person he had busted years before. Since she was at our center, he was asking questions. Turned out, there were **two** of them who’d done the crime. One white, one black. I knew them both. Knowing both, IMHO, the white one was far more dangerous, in every way. He offered the white woman complete immunity to testify against the other one. My point is that according to at least the black officers’ association in Cincinnati, (see provided link), there are problems. These problems were reported and not much was done. Not saying rioting is ok, but it certainly seems understandable that there are problems, people made complaints, officials ignored the complaints. **december** while I agree that illiteracy etc. are problems, big ones, needing work, I’d say the minority residents of that city have identified the problems with the police (and shooting of minorities) to be of more immediate concern. So, since it’s their lives at risk, I’d let them make the priorities. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/54 "2001-04-18T18:51:44Z")
If I understand your point, you are saying that you believe that if the 14 people who were killed by police in the last 5 years were white, then the policemen who shot them would have said to themselves “Even though this criminal I am attempting to apprehend is threatening me with a deadly weapon, I will not shoot them because they are white” If you do not believe this then the alternative is that the skin color of the men who were shot had nothing to do with whether or not they were shot. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/55 "2001-04-18T19:20:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*…My point is that according to at least the black officers’ association in Cincinnati, (see provided link), there are problems. These problems were reported and not much was done. Not saying rioting is ok, but it certainly seems understandable that there are problems, people made complaints, officials ignored the complaints… > > **december** while I agree that illiteracy etc. are problems, big ones, needing work, I’d say the minority residents of that city have identified the problems with the police (and shooting of minorities) to be of more immediate concern. So, since it’s their lives at risk, I’d let them make the priorities. \*\* wring, can you be more specific about your point? I think we would all agree that there are problems with regard to policing that haven’t been solved, but there are unsolved problems in many other areas too. Literacy, crime, drugs, housing, obesity, reduced life span, mathematics training, computer availability, pollution, vermin, lack of good jobs nearby, job training, lack of health care, etc. We all know the list. None of these problems has been fully solved in the inner city. I’d like to know _your opinion_ as where police racism stands in relation to all the rest. BTW, I don’t think racism is the only cause of these these killings. The penultimate two blacks killed by Cincinnati police were killed by black policemen. That suggests the possibility that the conduct of some of the victims may be a factor. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/56 "2001-04-18T19:53:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*If I understand your point, you are saying that you believe that if the 14 people who were killed by police in the last 5 years were white, then the policemen who shot them would have said to themselves “Even though this criminal I am attempting to apprehend is threatening me with a deadly weapon, I will not shoot them because they are white” > If you do not believe this then the alternative is that the skin color of the men who were shot had nothing to do with whether or not they were shot. \*\* wrong, you’re getting the perhaps more likely scenario backwards: Policeman entering area, sees black suspect, because of stats similar to those you’ve bandied about, and without the reflection of what exactly those stats may mean, the officer’s apprehension is possibly **increased** because of the race of the individual involved. The individual, instead of staying absolutely still, moves in some fashion. again, because of the increased aprehension felt by the officer, the officer may react quicker, believing their life is in danger. It is not necessary to believe that the officer intends that sequence and intentionally targets blacks in order for it to happen. One only needs to believe that there’s a potential that the officers **increase** their level of awareness and aprehension based on the race of the suspect. I’ve been approached by officers. In another thread, I told of a (now) funny story where I nearly was arrested for burglary of my dad’s jewelry store. There’s no doubt in my mind that had I been black, the officers, responding to the silent alarm, and seeing a shoddily dressed young hippie exiting the fancy jewelry store, would have been more aggressive in their response (especially since the area was predominately white). I’m not black. But I am in an urban environment, surrounded by very rural areas. It’s routine that minority folks (especially male) need to be concerned about traveling through areas nearby. They’re likely to be stopped. This is something that I never have to be concerned about. To have to deal with that level of suspicion w/o substance is mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/57 "2001-04-18T20:00:32Z")
Just thought I’d inject a little intothe debate, regading the perception of black as criminals vs perception. The linked report goes into juvenile and minority crime. It also deals with the roles of media and politicians. Hope [it](http://www.buildingblocksforyouth.org/media/media.html) helps ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/58 "2001-04-18T20:58:35Z")
**December** I respectfully submit that my opinion on priorities isn’t the issue at hand. The people who are directly affected have made their opinions known. Re: your point about the black cop shooting the suspect= not racially motivated, see my point above. The scenario doesn’t change when the cop is a different race. wasn’t it Jesse Jackson who spoke sadly of a time when he heard voices behind him, looked and saw white youth and was saddened because of the immediate reaction of relief. (thanks **stuffinb** for the link - does a better job than I have explaining why stats can become self fufilling.) (and if you start saying 'yea but, that talks of juvenile offenders, not adult) what do you think the chances are for adult crimes between the minority youth who’s been incarcerated and the white youth who may have been sent home for a stern talking to my the 'rents? self fufilling.) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824/59 "2001-04-19T13:05:37Z")
and a recent conference [calls](http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/04/18/police.brutality/index.html) police brutality on African Americans an ‘epidemic’. One of their proposed solutions is to get the police to also record data re: stops, vs. just arrests. (so, if they’re more likely to stop blacks than whites, then that alone can be part of the systematic issue) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hate-to-say-this-but/61824.md?page=2)