# I have a sneaking suspicion that shooter in Detroit may have saved lives **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238 "2013-11-19T05:56:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/1 "2013-11-19T05:56:25Z")
Renisha McBride crashed her car into a parked car, then staggered around for a couple hours, then got shot in the face and killed. After those hours of walking around, she still had something like a .23 BAC at the time of her death. Not sure how to extrapolate what it would have been when she was driving, assuming she wasn’t walking around drinking from a flask or something; but having been very nearly killed by a super drunk driver myself, I see someone like that as a real menace to society. I do not like the NRA and their twisted interpretation of the Second Amendment; I seriously dislike the gun culture in this country; but I feel there are so many more greater tragedies and injustices every day than this maniac being dead and thus no longer able to get behind the wheel of a car and potentially kill a truly innocent person. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/2 "2013-11-19T06:46:17Z")
Regardless of how you want rate the tragedy, you’re still not allowed to shoot someone in the face. She was a truly innocent person, in so far as she had done nothing deserving of a gun blast to the face (morally or legally). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/3 "2013-11-19T11:48:46Z")
Are you saying she would have killed somebody that evening? Because by the time she was shot, she didn’t have a car to drive. I doubt she would have killed anyone other than herself walking around drunk. Or are you saying she might have gotten drunk and gone driving again in the future? That’s certainly possible but it’s hard to see that as justification for shooting somebody. By that logic, you’d be justified in shooting that gun owner - you could make a much better argument that he’s likely to kill somebody in the future (he’s done it once) than you could make in McBride’s case. I don’t think there’s a very strong argument for shooting either people who are drunk in public or people who own a gun on the basis that they might kill somebody in the future. Shooting should be limited to when people are committing or are about to commit a serious crime. ---
**Author:** ![JLRogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@JLRogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JLRogers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/4 "2013-11-19T12:03:13Z")
I don’t think the OP was claiming that McBride would’ve killed anyone that evening, neither does the post attempt to justify the shooting or attempt to introduce logic into the situation. It seems very much an understandable emotional response to a situation that resembles a traumatic experience in the poster’s own life. Personally I don’t find claims that McBride was a perfect, upstanding member of society cut down in her prime by a racist monster compelling in the least. It’s a tragedy to be sure, but as far as I can tell there is no way to have any sort of reasonable discussion about it without people dividing themselves into camps and shouting at each other. I imagine we can all agree that in most circumstances both driving while drunk and shooting people in the face are terrible ideas. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/5 "2013-11-19T12:29:01Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > Personally I don’t find claims that McBride was a perfect, upstanding member of society cut down in her prime by a racist monster compelling in the least. It’s a tragedy to be sure, but as far as I can tell there is no way to have any sort of reasonable discussion about it without people dividing themselves into camps and shouting at each other. > . If all she did was knock on his door, then she’s indistinguishable from a “perfect, upstanding member of society”. It’s not unreasonable to knock on someone’s door, even in the middle of night, after having gotten in a car accident. If it turns out that she was yelling profanities and trying to kick the door in, that changes the picture. But if all she did was knock on a door and wail “Help!”, then it could have been anyone on that porch getting their face blown off. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/6 "2013-11-19T13:39:07Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > there is no way to have any sort of reasonable discussion about it without people dividing themselves into camps and shouting at each other. Or, as one side seems to prefer, shooting at each other. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/7 "2013-11-19T13:44:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Renisha McBride crashed her car into a parked car, then staggered around for a couple hours, then got shot in the face and killed. After those hours of walking around, she still had something like a .23 BAC at the time of her death. .218 bac, actually. Twice the ‘legal’ limit for driving, which may or may not be relevant to how ‘drunk’ she was. That she shouldn’t be driving both goes without saying and is completely irrelevant; the only ‘life saved’ that would be relevant is if the \*shooter \*felt is life was in danger from a woman knocking on his door. Note to Girl Scout troops in the area: Might want to give this house a wide berth on your next cookie sale. I’m reminded of a story I read somewhere. Woman goes to answer a knock on her door, sees her young son’s play gun in front of the door. She picks it up and answers the door. The sales man looks at her, looks at the gun, and runs away screaming. Bewildered, the mom steps outside, then realizes her son had pasted a note to the door: “We shoot every fifth salesman, and the fourth one just left!” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/8 "2013-11-19T13:45:29Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/9 "2013-11-19T14:06:59Z")
Last I’ve heard the shooter said he shot McBride accidentally. Which pretty much eliminates any debate about justification. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/10 "2013-11-19T14:12:10Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > Personally I don’t find claims that McBride was a perfect, upstanding member of society cut down in her prime by a racist monster compelling in the least. I think it’s an irrelevant claim. Except for extremely limited circumstances, people don’t get to pick how “innocent” a person seems to be and then shoot them if they fail to pass muster. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/11 "2013-11-19T14:12:41Z")
I checked my crystal ball and nope, she never would have killed anyone if she hadn’t gotten shot in the face. Who’s next? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/12 "2013-11-19T14:49:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Last I’ve heard the shooter said he shot McBride accidentally. Which pretty much eliminates any debate about justification. Yes, he’s making quite the claim: that he thought she was a home intruder, \*and \*that he shot her by accident. ‘I had my gun with me at the door because I was a-scared o’ the intruder, but I shot the intruder purely by dumb luck’. > [@Jophiel](#): > > I think it’s an irrelevant claim. Except for extremely limited circumstances, people don’t get to pick how “innocent” a person seems to be and then shoot them if they fail to pass muster. George Zimmerman begs to differ. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/13 "2013-11-19T15:46:19Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > I don’t think the OP was claiming that McBride would’ve killed anyone that evening, neither does the post attempt to justify the shooting or attempt to introduce logic into the situation. It seems very much an understandable emotional response to a situation that resembles a traumatic experience in the poster’s own life. > > Personally I don’t find claims that McBride was a perfect, upstanding member of society cut down in her prime by a racist monster compelling in the least. It’s a tragedy to be sure, but as far as I can tell there is no way to have any sort of reasonable discussion about it without people dividing themselves into camps and shouting at each other. > > I imagine we can all agree that in most circumstances both driving while drunk and shooting people in the face are terrible ideas. Right. I am not making a legal argument, or an argument that the shooting was justified–since he obviously wouldn’t have known anything about her drunk driving. I am saying, as you seem to understand but others do not, that she was not some poor sweet innocent as so many are now portraying her, a lost young girl politely tapping on a man’s front door asking for directions, but rather a criminal fleeing the scene of her own crime–and furthermore, a menace to society, a ticking time bomb. To the poster saying she was double the legal limit when she died: no. She was in fact nearly _11 times_ the legal limit for a nineteen year old in Michigan; and again, this had been hours since her hit-and-run, so presumably she was even more drunk at that time. > **[Impaired Driving Law](https://www.michigan.gov/en/msp/divisions/ohsp/safety-programs/Impaired-Driving/impaired-driving-law)** > > It is a crime for a driver to have a bodily alcohol content (BAC) of .08 or greater if over age 21 or .02 or greater if under 21. In addition, Michigan has a high-BAC law with enhanced penalties for anyone caught driving with a BAC of .17 or higher.... > [@](#): > > It is a crime for a driver to have a bodily alcohol content (BAC) of .08 or greater if over age 21 or .02 or greater if under 21. In addition, Michigan has a high-BAC law with enhanced penalties for anyone caught driving with a BAC of .17 or higher. Sure, .02 is pretty low. But the federal government is recommending .05 for all drivers, and it has saved lives when introduced in other countries: [http://www.startribune.com/opinion/editorials/208581461.htm](http://www.startribune.com/opinion/editorials/208581461.htm) And obviously, regardless of her age she was well over the threshold for “enhanced penalties” in Michigan, which is as it should be. I’m not crazy about drunk driving at any level, but it is the ones who can barely walk or talk intelligibly, and who nevertheless swerve around the roads at great speed, who really alarm me. There were two people that night recklessly operating deadly technological tools. One of them got lucky and only hit a presumably empty parked car; the other one killed her. If their mutual reckless negligence could have just killed each other, that would have been the neatest outcome. BTW, comparing her to Trayvon Martin is an insult to the latter. He was after all just walking home from the store with a bag of Skittles. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/14 "2013-11-19T15:59:43Z")
Those BAC numbers are dry and clinical and lack context, so this is a useful guide to keep in mind: > [@](#): > > 0.10-0.125 BAC: Significant impairment of motor coordination and loss of good judgment. Speech may be slurred; balance, vision, reaction time and hearing will be impaired. Euphoria. > > 0.13-0.15 BAC: Gross motor impairment and lack of physical control. Blurred vision and major loss of balance. Euphoria is reduced and dysphoria (anxiety, restlessness) is beginning to appear. Judgment and perception are severely impaired. > > 0.16-0.19 BAC: Dysphoria predominates, nausea may appear. The drinker has the appearance of a “sloppy drunk.” > > 0.20 BAC: Felling dazed, confused or otherwise disoriented. May need help to stand or walk. If you injure yourself you may not feel the pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. The gag reflex is impaired and you can choke if you do vomit. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened. > > 0.25 BAC: All mental, physical and sensory functions are severely impaired. Increased risk of asphyxiation from choking on vomit and of seriously injuring yourself by falls or other accidents. > > 0.30 BAC: STUPOR. You have little comprehension of where you are. You may pass out suddenly and be difficult to awaken. > > 0.35 BAC: Coma is possible. This is the level of surgical anesthesia. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/15 "2013-11-19T16:04:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I am saying, as you seem to understand but others do not, that she was not some poor sweet innocent as so many are now portraying her, a lost young girl politely tapping on a man’s front door asking for directions, but rather a criminal fleeing the scene of her own crime–and furthermore, a menace to society, a ticking time bomb. I don’t see why we need to grab out of the hyperbole bag and call her a perfectly innocent lamb nor a wanton engine of destruction. She was a kid who made a poor, dangerous choice to drive intoxicated and then made a poor choice in leaving the scene. Neither of those things seem to change the events of the evening a single bit. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/16 "2013-11-19T16:07:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > To the poster saying she was double the legal limit when she died: no. She was in fact nearly _11 times_ the legal limit I really really really hope you don’t need even remotely basic math skills on the job. I’m guessing that anyone with a bac of 11 times the legal limit would almost certainly be comatose if not dead. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/17 "2013-11-19T16:12:29Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I really really really hope you don’t need even remotely basic math skills on the job. > > I’m guessing that anyone with a bac of 11 times the legal limit would almost certainly be comatose if not dead. Really? You cut off his quote at exactly the right point just to make your point? That’s dangerously close to quote tampering. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/18 "2013-11-19T16:24:06Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Really? You cut off his quote at exactly the right point just to make your point? That’s dangerously close to quote tampering. _shrug_. He specifically quoted me to say no, she was 11 times over the legal limit. I was merely pointing out he was being preposterous. Driving drunk is a bad idea. I was in a very very bad car crash thanks to a drunk driver that by all rights should have killed our entire family. It still has zero relevance to the home owner shooting her in the head. For that matter - do we even know if she was driving drunk? Witnesses that saw her after she hit the car make no mention of her being ‘sloppy drunk’ (as per SlackerInc’s guidelines). SlackerInc automatically suspected she was -drunker- when she hit the parked car compared to two hours later when she got shot in the face, but for all we know she was well under the legal limit, then spent the two hours after the crash drinking in the back of her car, then - judgement impaired - walking up to ask for help. Wouldn’t take but 6-8 drinks in a two hour period depending on body weight and such. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/19 "2013-11-19T16:38:34Z")
Lest anyone misunderstand: SlackerInc was exaggerating how drunk McBride was, I guess in an attempt to suggest the home owner was somehow morally justified in shooting her in the face ('she was \*11 times \*the legal limit OMG! The home owner was saving lives!"). It’s ridiculous, because McBride was 19, which means she wasn’t allowed to drink, period. Using the 0.02 penalty threshold for drivers under 21 and saying she was ‘11 times the legal limit’ is a gross misrepresentation. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238/20 "2013-11-19T17:35:25Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > _shrug_. He specifically quoted me to say no, she was 11 times over the legal limit. I was merely pointing out he was being preposterous. What I said was “She was in fact nearly 11 times the legal limit for a nineteen year old in Michigan” (which is relevant because this took place in Michigan and she was in fact a 19-year-old) and cited the state’s website for proof of this. So not only was my statement not preposterous, it was precisely correct. Nor was there any ambiguity or misdirection there since I acknowledged that .02 is pretty low and discussed various other legal and medical aspects of blood alcohol content. > [@](#): > > For that matter - do we even know if she was driving drunk? Witnesses that saw her after she hit the car make no mention of her being ‘sloppy drunk’ (as per SlackerInc’s guidelines). SlackerInc automatically suspected she was -drunker- when she hit the parked car compared to two hours later when she got shot in the face, but for all we know she was well under the legal limit, then spent the two hours after the crash drinking in the back of her car, then - judgement impaired - walking up to ask for help. Wouldn’t take but 6-8 drinks in a two hour period depending on body weight and such. I have to note the irony of your calling my comment preposterous. Let’s leave aside the fact that witnesses and police say she immediately left the scene of the crash on foot. You are seriously intending to advance the hypothesis that she crashed into a parked car sober, and then proceeded to sit in the backseat getting wasted? In her sober state before drinking, she would not be concerned that this could be perhaps, uh, slightly misconstrued by police when they arrive on the scene? Give me a break–that is one of the most ridiculous notions I have ever heard. Am I being punk’d here? LOL I would also note that you are actually sneakily moving the goalposts to call her “‘sloppy drunk’ (as per SlackerInc’s guidelines)”. She was well _past_ the range characterised that way in those guidelines. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-sneaking-suspicion-that-shooter-in-detroit-may-have-saved-lives/674238.md?page=2)