# I have a stupid Star Wars question... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2002, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961 "2002-04-22T09:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/41 "2002-04-23T21:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ninevah \* > \*\*, although it’s hard to believe that George Lucas **didn’t** have the whole saga set out (re: the Luke/Leia thing) way before shooting. (Hasn’t he, like, for the last twenty years or so, had all the scripts already written hidden under his pillow?!) > > \*\* I find it hard to believe that anyone who has seen all of these poorly scripted ( continuity wise, individualy, they work fine) movies could believe such a thing!:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/42 "2002-04-23T22:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > And yet you kissed him twice-- the second time with tongue in front of Han? OK, where is everyone getting the idea that there was tongue action there? Last time I saw it, we were looking more or less at the back of her head, and the kiss was quick enough that there wouldn’t be much chance for tongue. Besides, it’s quite obvious that the only reason for that kiss was to spite Han, anyway, and he certainly didn’t know they were siblings. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/43 "2002-04-23T22:47:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > C-3PO and R2D2 are replaced by a couple of captive Empire bureaucrats who are used for comic relief, and Luke Skywalker is a general acting as Princess Leia’s bodyguard. Of course, the first point here is vaguely and the second _very_ reminiscent of Kurosawa’s _The Hidden Fortress_. Lucas has hardly hidden what’s an obvious connection, but it’s nice to a missing link making it more explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/44 "2002-04-23T23:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bonzer \* > \*\* > > Of course, the first point here is vaguely and the second _very_ reminiscent of Kurosawa’s _The Hidden Fortress_. Lucas has hardly hidden what’s an obvious connection, but it’s nice to a missing link making it more explicit. \*\* I’d say the first point was also very reminiscent. The “connection” is that _Star Wars_ is a remake of _The Hidden Fortress_, reworked extensively enough to have taken on a life of its own, much like _Sanjuro_, and _The Seven Samurai_ were reworked respectively into _A Fistfull of Dollars_ and _The Magnificent Seven_, each of which spawned sequels that bore no direct connection to the Japanese originals. Likewise, _City on Fire_ was extensively “borrowed” from in creating _Reservoir Dogs_. I think it’s pretty clear that Lucas has been making it up as he goes along, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Isaac Asimov wrote his Foundation and Robot stories without any overall plan, and said in one essay how he was surprised himself to discover connections some stories had to each other. The difference, of course is that Asimov was a great writer, while Lucas is an adequate writer and a great visual storyteller. He should sketch out the stories and let Lawrence Kasdan (or someone else who can write dialog) write the scripts. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/45 "2002-04-23T23:27:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bonzer \* > \*\* > > Of course, the first point here is vaguely and the second _very_ reminiscent of Kurosawa’s _The Hidden Fortress_. Lucas has hardly hidden what’s an obvious connection, but it’s nice to a missing link making it more explicit. \*\* I’d say the first point was also very reminiscent. The “connection” is that _Star Wars_ is a remake of _The Hidden Fortress_, reworked extensively enough to have taken on a life of its own, much like _Sanjuro_, and _The Seven Samurai_ were reworked respectively into _A Fistfull of Dollars_ and _The Magnificent Seven_, each of which spawned sequels that bore no direct connection to the Japanese originals. Likewise, _City on Fire_ was extensively “borrowed” from in creating _Reservoir Dogs_. I think it’s pretty clear that Lucas has been making it up as he goes along, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Isaac Asimov wrote his Foundation and Robot stories without any overall plan, and said in one essay how he was surprised himself to discover connections some stories had to each other. The difference, of course is that Asimov was a great writer, while Lucas is an adequate writer and a great visual storyteller. He should sketch out the stories and let Lawrence Kasdan (or someone else who can write dialog) write the scripts. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/46 "2002-04-24T01:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > **In the next draft, the cantina scene takes place in a night club on Alderaan, but no light-saber fight takes place. Neither Luke nor any other Jedi is not present – rather a vaguely Solo-like character named Clieg Whitsun and a trader named Bail Antilles (Wedge’s father?) are present for some kind of Imperial trader-raid in which Bail is captured.** Bail Antilles was mentioned in Episode I. Bail Organa appears in Episode II. Cliegg is a name re-used in Episode II (Cliegg Lars) , as is the name Whitesun (Beru Whitesun, Owen Lars’s girlfriend). When he needs inspiration, he has it all stored away. I believe that Lucas’s very basic plot that he had figured once he’d settled on the first movie’s story, has consequently been stuck to pretty closely. But it’s in the fleshing out that variations start to come into play. When he claims he had it all worked out ahead of time, I believe he’s being honest, to a degree. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/47 "2002-04-24T01:41:37Z")
Guinastasia wrote; > [@](#): > > I think Lucas is going to explain the disappearing bodies in the next episode-or possibly the third. Supposedly, there’s a very interesting reason for Obi Wan and Yoda “fading away”. It is because they were already dead before the _A New Hope_ opens, right? I had long felt that Obi’s fade-out before the death stroke hit was because he wasn’t ever really there, just a manifestation of The Force. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/48 "2002-04-24T02:42:00Z")
No offence but that sounds a bit more deep than what Lucas’ll be going for. I bet it’s gonna be something like them having so many midichlorians that their bodies are eaten by them when they die :). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/49 "2002-04-24T06:28:36Z")
Just remember: Boba Fett was _originally_ supposed to be a one-movie throwaway character. He’s only gotten so much exposure (and backhistory!) because Lucas is pimpin’ him to the fanboys. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/50 "2002-04-24T07:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I bet it’s gonna be something like them having so many midichlorians that their bodies are eaten by them when they die No, no, a billion times NO!! There needs to be a scene in Episode II that goes something like this… ANAKIN: “But Qui-Gon told me that midichlorians were living beings that communicated the Force to you.” OBI-WAN: “Yeah, he told you that because, at the time, you were a fucking stupid punk kid who couldn’t act… he knew that you wouldn’t understand a complex explanation. Now shut up and eat your nerf stew.” > [@](#): > > Just remember: Boba Fett was originally supposed to be a one-movie throwaway character. He’s only gotten so much exposure (and backhistory!) because Lucas is pimpin’ him to the fanboys. Don’t worry, he MORE than made up for that by subjecting us to Jar Jar. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/51 "2002-04-24T15:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > \*\* > > I’d say the first point was also very reminiscent. The “connection” is that _Star Wars_ is a remake of _The Hidden Fortress_, reworked extensively enough to have taken on a life of its own, much like _Sanjuro_, and _The Seven Samurai_ were reworked respectively into _A Fistfull of Dollars_ and _The Magnificent Seven_, \*\* Uh, \*Fistful \* is a remake of \*Yojimbo \*, the first one. Sanjuro is the sequel. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/52 "2002-04-24T18:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > The “connection” is that _Star Wars_ is a remake of _The Hidden Fortress_, reworked extensively enough to have taken on a life of its own I was taking the connection, but not the details of the original plot, as common knowledge. I’d regard Lucas’ reworking to be sufficiently great that it’s not quite a remake - it’s more a matter of incorporating several specific elements from Kurosawa. Just as, if you want, you can identify other elements from other films. If Lucas hadn’t acknowledged it as a starting point, I suspect most viewers could watch both without explicitly noticing the link. That wouldn’t have been the case if he’d filmed any draft where Luke is a general guiding her through enemy lines. > [@](#): > > I’d say the first point was also very reminiscent. Well, telling the story from a pair of low status comic relief is the most obvious element the final film uses from _The Hidden Fortress_. However, the original peasants are so n-th grade in status that I’m not sure that “captured Empire bureaucrats” are that natural a translation. A pair of droids actually seems a closer parallel to Kurosawa’s nobodies. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/53 "2002-04-26T03:11:53Z")
i have bought the episode ii book, just released. i am up to page 26. how owen lars is related to luke is explained. i will vaguely hint that uncle owen is a paternal relation. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/54 "2002-04-26T04:00:13Z")
Did C3-PO ever redeem him being an ass, and save the day ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/55 "2002-04-26T04:12:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrFidelius \* > \*\*It is because they were already dead before the _A New Hope_ opens, right? I had long felt that Obi’s fade-out before the death stroke hit was because he wasn’t ever really there, just a manifestation of The Force. \*\* Heh. They could subtitle it The Sixth Force Sense. “I see dead Jedi” ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/56 "2002-04-26T05:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Did C3-PO ever redeem him being an ass, and save the day There was a scene that was filmed for TESB, but was ultimately cut. Apparently, the Rebels had a bunch of Wampas (those big, yeti-like creature… one tried to give Luke a nose-job) locked up in a cell inside their base, and had a sign marked “Danger! Wampas!” or somesuch. Anyway, as Han, Leia, and Threepio were heading for the _Falcon_, Threepio stops, and removes the “Danger!” sign from the door. Later, a bunch of stormtroopers go in the unmarked door, and… well… you get the idea. So, he sort of redeemed himself. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/57 "2002-04-26T06:13:27Z")
I had an acquaintance in college who insisted with a few days of the opening of Empire that Luke and Leia were siblings, to him it was obvious. I didn’t really believe it until ROTJ, although it didn’t come as a surprise at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/58 "2002-04-26T07:35:32Z")
**Bonzer** : After reading your response a couple of times, I don’t see any real difference between your description of the connection between _The Hidden Fortress_ and _Star Wars_and mine, other than whether to call it a remake. If the primary source for the plot of your film is another film, even if extensively modified in the process of making the subsequent film, IMO, it’s a remake. Quentin Tarantino may have discarded more than half of the plot of _City on Fire_ in making _Reservoir Dogs_ (in the process making a marginally better movie), but it’s still a remake. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/59 "2002-04-26T22:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > **Bonzer** : After reading your response a couple of times, I don’t see any real difference between your description of the connection between _The Hidden Fortress_ and _Star Wars_and mine, other than whether to call it a remake. A fair summary:) Actually, I think the only disagreement is of the half empty, half full variety. While I’m emphasising the differences - particularly as they evolved over the scripting process - you’re emphasising the similarities. ---
**Author:** ![holnist\_army](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@holnist\_army](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holnist_army)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2002, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961/60 "2002-04-27T02:46:42Z")
the real only thing that has stayed constant in the whole series so far has to be the outstanding composing/conducting by john williams. he has had as big a had in it as lucas, in my opinion. he never fails to impress me, williams that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-a-stupid-star-wars-question/104961.md?page=2)