# I have decided to become an atheist (hypothetical) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723 "2008-04-10T03:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/101 "2008-04-10T18:32:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Of course you did; that was the obvious thrust of your post. It’s the standard “Anyone who doesn’t believe in God is an evil monster and enemy of all humanity” propaganda the believers spout all the time. [/quote] Really, point to the place where I said something about ‘all atheists’. > [@](#): > > Except they don’t, because there is no God. Instead, they have arbitrary assertions with no connection to reality, which can be changed randomly at any time. Reality can be changed randomly by people’s actions. Your assertions about morality are arbitrary as well. The results of people’s actions define the reality we live in. That’s what society is all about. > [@](#): > > No, it’s a matter of what’s better for humanity. Of what serves people, in general, better. People have different views on this. Yours seems to be a minority viewpoint. Most people seem to disagree with you about what is best for humanity. How do we determine what is best for humanity? > [@](#): > > Because justifications like “Doing thus and so makes life better” allow you to judge your actions by objective reality. Basing your “morality” on God does not. If you base your “morality” on god, you don’t actually have any morality at all; just orders. Orders that are detached from reality. So what if killing you makes my life better? Is not the condition of my life a subjective measure? > [@](#): > > No, I’m saying I don’t care if there is one or not. I care about the effects of morality on people. What does this even mean? “The effects of morality on people?”, how do you determine what is right? Some people think that homosexuality is immoral. Some people think it’s immoral to think that homoexuality is immoral. How do I choose between them? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/102 "2008-04-10T18:32:22Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I cannot believe that you honestly think that any atheist proposed such infallability or omni-empathy, just like I cannot believe that you really felt that Dawkins was suggesting that all children always follow their parents’ commands. Either you knowingly like to employ obviously faulty premises for some reason, or you also have a severe lack of perspective taking ability. [/QUOTE] Did I ever say that any atheist had proposed infallability or omni-empathy? If your answer to the previous question is no, then who is offering faulty premises, you or me? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/103 "2008-04-10T18:35:32Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] 70% hystrionics and 30% thoughtful responses. Which is about what I got. [/QUOTE] So… I guess congratulations are in order? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/104 "2008-04-10T18:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] So… I guess congratulations are in order? [/QUOTE] Yes, I require accolades for my retroactive prescience. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/105 "2008-04-10T18:39:02Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I imagine, were mswas’s post similar in that many theists thought it were a misrepresentation of themselves to the extent that they cannot love, for example, then there would be a similar ratio of insults to arguments. [/quote] There have been many threads in this forum that consisted of atheists misrepresenting what believers believe. Is there any example where the responses to such had the same insult/argument ratio as this thread? > [@](#): > > I’d point out also that if your method of finding out the moral and empatheticness of posts by atheists is to count them up, and that you show incredulousness at the idea that most posts by atheists in this forum being moral/empathetic, that you must already have counted all posts in this forum. What was the result? Or perhaps you’re asking for evidence you yourself are not interested in providing for yourself? The sort of thinking would lead to mental paralysis, so I don’t bother with it. I was merely pointing out to **Baldwin** that this forum alone isn’t a good proof of widespread superior behavior by atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/106 "2008-04-10T18:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Zeriel** and **MaxTorque** The problem though is you are both describing ways to develop a personal code of ethics, but not really morals. [/quote] Um, no, I’m not. I’m attempting to use my powers of reasoning to determine, rationally, what make right things right. That’s not a “personal code of ethics”, that’s “morality.” When you’ve taken some rudimentary philosophy classes, you’ll know the difference. > [@](#): > > Everything you are talking about describes approaching problems situationally. Morals are what keeps us from killing someone when killing them is the approach of maximum utility. Game Theory only tells us that in MOST instances, self-interest and communal interest are maximized. If I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can without a doubt get the hottest girl at the expense of my friends, there is no reason for me to concern myself with their futile attempts at getting the girl I know that I will obtain. It is only when competition for the prettiest girl is fairly even that it matters whether or not I seek methods of deflection to reduce competition. So when I have decided after my cost/benefit analysis such as it is, that the best outcome requires someone else’s death, what is there to keep me from doing so? Why shouldn’t I? If your only reason for not killing people is God’s decree, then you’re merely a well-disguised sociopath who fears punishment, not a moral being. If you don’t know the difference, you really need to read the books I suggested earlier. The fact that you ask in a later post: > [@mswas](#): > > How does one determine what is morally objective? You act as though it’s some sort of genetic imperative. If I can defy it and others can defy it, clearly it’s not a genetic imperative for everyone. If it’s not an imperative for everyone, then maybe it is right and good for some of us to be sociopaths. suggests that you haven’t read Mill or Kant, or even the wikipedia articles I linked, which will provide a good springboard for your future study on the subject. Seriously, go read them and stop flailing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/107 "2008-04-10T18:45:37Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Really, point to the place where I said something about ‘all atheists’. [/quote] You didn’t need to. As has been pointed out already, if some atheist posted an “I have decided to believe in God” thread where he talked about being a blithering idiot you sacrifices his children, everyone would accurately see it as a slam aimed at all religious people. [QUOTE=mswas] Reality can be changed randomly by people’s actions. [/quote] No, it can’t. Reality is what it is. [QUOTE=mswas] Your assertions about morality are arbitrary as well. The results of people’s actions define the reality we live in. That’s what society is all about. [/quote] No, society is about cooperation for mutual benefit. Not “defining reality”. [QUOTE=mswas] People have different views on this. Yours seems to be a minority viewpoint. Most people seem to disagree with you about what is best for humanity. How do we determine what is best for humanity? [/quote] Experimentation. [QUOTE=mswas] So what if killing you makes my life better? [/quote] But if people in general take that attitude, everyone is worse off. Thus, the “killing is bad” rule. [QUOTE=mswas] What does this even mean? “The effects of morality on people?”, how do you determine what is right? [/quote] What we have done; millennia of trial and error, debate, reasoning, and with a bit of science in modern times. [QUOTE=mswas] Some people think that homosexuality is immoral. Some people think it’s immoral to think that homoexuality is immoral. How do I choose between them? [/QUOTE] Easy. The people who believe that homosexuality is immoral are trying to harm people who don’t threaten them, and have no rational basis for their attitude. They are on the side of malice, irrationality, and bigotry, and are therefore the enemy of everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/108 "2008-04-10T18:49:23Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Morality is a human construct, but it is not entirely arbitrary. It is built upon the foundation of human emotions. [/quote] Sure it is. The choice of human emotion as a foundation is entirely arbitrary. It’s like basing morality on an itch. There is no real reason for those who don’t feel the itch, or don’t think the itch is important, to be convinced. We have kicked this around several times. Absent any objective standard, there is no basis for arguing that the Holocaust is “worse” than the color green. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/109 "2008-04-10T18:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] If the culture shares the same edicts from God, then there is a unifying theme that can be discussed and measured. [/QUOTE] When in the history of human societies has that ever happened? Isn’t it more typical that schisms appear with perceived differences either hair-splitting or huge? I don’t know how you can claim a unifying theme, when history suggests civil wars are more likely. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/110 "2008-04-10T18:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] You didn’t need to. As has been pointed out already, if some atheist posted an “I have decided to believe in God” thread where he talked about being a blithering idiot you sacrifices his children, everyone would accurately see it as a slam aimed at all religious people. [/quote] So one irrational over-reaction justifies another eh? I’m not talking about you, Miller or Hentor. If you can’t accept that, that’s your problem. If you really need to cling to that straw man, that’s your business. > [@](#): > > No, society is about cooperation for mutual benefit. Not “defining reality”. So society and its makeup is not a part of reality? > [@](#): > > But if people in general take that attitude, everyone is worse off. Thus, the “killing is bad” rule. Absolutely. I understand why it applies in a general sense. This assumes that I should care about the fate of society. > [@](#): > > What we have done; millennia of trial and error, debate, reasoning, and with a bit of science in modern times. The millenia of debate and trial and error was largely carried out by priests in temples. > [@](#): > > Easy. The people who believe that homosexuality is immoral are trying to harm people who don’t threaten them, and have no rational basis for their attitude. They are on the side of malice, irrationality, and bigotry, and are therefore the enemy of everyone. But there are arguments that homosexuality hurts society. You take it as a given that this is not true. That’s just your opinion though. The moral imperative to reproduce has some rational bases. You are still claiming a higher moral virtue than the vast majority of people. As though somehow YOU know what is best, whereas most people are too stupid to get it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/111 "2008-04-10T18:55:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] When in the history of human societies has that ever happened? Isn’t it more typical that schisms appear with perceived differences either hair-splitting or huge? I don’t know how you can claim a unifying theme, when history suggests civil wars are more likely. [/QUOTE] Schisms occur, but that doesn’t negate the idea that large groups of people can agree on a set of normative values. Schisms occur BECAUSE of those normative values. When a division in the group based on what the normative values are occurs, that’s a schism. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/112 "2008-04-10T18:59:05Z")
So for the terms of debate. Let’s establish something. Is there such a thing as a normative atheism with shared cultural values? If the answer is yes, then what I said is an indictment of all atheism. If the answer is no, then what I said reflects only upon the atheism that I choose for myself in the hypothetical scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/113 "2008-04-10T19:03:56Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] So one irrational over-reaction justifies another eh? I’m not talking about you, Miller or Hentor. If you can’t accept that, that’s your problem. If you really need to cling to that straw man, that’s your business. [/quote] Yeah, sure you weren’t. [QUOTE=mswas] So society and its makeup is not a part of reality? [/quote] They are subordinate to reality. [QUOTE=mswas] Absolutely. I understand why it applies in a general sense. This assumes that I should care about the fate of society. [/quote] In the long run, people or groups of people who do care survive, and those that don’t care, die. The survivors tend to win arguments. [QUOTE=mswas] The millenia of debate and trial and error was largely carried out by priests in temples. [/quote] No, it wasn’t. They have largely been parasites, and have held back humanity’s moral development immensely. They argued over competing lies and delusions, not morality or the real consequences and needs of real people. As I said, the first step on the path to civilized, moral behavior is to reject or ignore religion; secularism or atheism. [QUOTE=mswas] But there are arguments that homosexuality hurts society. You take it as a given that this is not true. That’s just your opinion though. The moral imperative to reproduce has some rational bases. [/QUOTE] There is no moral imperative to reproduce; we have far too many people. There are no truthful arguments that homosexuality hurts society. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/114 "2008-04-10T19:05:22Z")
**Max Torque** I would love to be able to introduce Kant to Schrodinger. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/115 "2008-04-10T19:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] When you believe the jury is still out on something, that means you haven’t yet accepted to believe the claim is true. When this concerns God/gods, this makes you an atheist. An atheist doesn’t have to believe there are no gods; he just has to be without belief. One who hasn’t made up his mind is still without belief. Agnostics are not those on the fence. [Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge](http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm). [/QUOTE] No it doesn’t make me an atheist, it makes me truthful, and honest. If I don’t know I don’t know. An atheist is one who asserts there is no God. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/116 "2008-04-10T19:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yeah, sure you weren’t. [/quote] Whatever suits your religious persecution complex. 😉 > [@](#): > > They are subordinate to reality. Does the United States of America exist? > [@](#): > > In the long run, people or groups of people who do care survive, and those that don’t care, die. The survivors tend to win arguments. Then explain China that has a habit of murdering whole swaths of it’s people periodically over thousands of years. How does it still exist? > [@](#): > > No, it wasn’t. They have largely been parasites, and have held back humanity’s moral development immensely. They argued over competing lies and delusions, not morality or the real consequences and needs of real people. As I said, the first step on the path to civilized, moral behavior is to reject or ignore religion; secularism or atheism. Define parasite. > [@](#): > > There is no moral imperative to reproduce; we have far too many people. There are no truthful arguments that homosexuality hurts society. According to you there is no moral imperative to reproduce. Prove that we have too many people. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/117 "2008-04-10T19:12:20Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Did I ever say that any atheist had proposed infallability or omni-empathy? If your answer to the previous question is no, then who is offering faulty premises, you or me? [/QUOTE] You implied that the nature of people’s posts in this thread would indicate whether those people were moral and empathetic. > [@ITR champion](#): > > Are you honestly asserting that the majority of posts by atheists in this forum are moral and empathetic? In most cases, at least for those identifying themselves as atheists, they are not. Try reading this thread and for each post, record whether it’s primarily devoted to addressing what mswas said or primarily devoted to insulting him. Then tally the numbers in each category and see what you get. If you were not implying that the result of this exercise would tell you anything about whether atheists are moral or empathetic, then you are absolutely correct that I imputed something that was not present. If so, I am sorry. I just can’t see why you would post something like that without having a point. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/118 "2008-04-10T19:12:54Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] There have been many threads in this forum that consisted of atheists misrepresenting what believers believe. Is there any example where the responses to such had the same insult/argument ratio as this thread? [/quote] Yes, I would wager so. I’d suggest that posts by Der Trihs, for example, tend to have rather a larger ratio of insult to argument. He obviously is considerably more vitriolic than mswas, but I would say the level of misrepresentation is about the same. I’d point out to you that it’s not merely misrepresentation in part, but a misunderstanding of the entire idea of atheism and what it means. I would wager that yes, a thread in which the OP explains how he can’t understand why all Christians (for example) aren’t huge sociopaths would get rather a pretty impressive amount of insults to argument. > [@](#): > > The sort of thinking would lead to mental paralysis, so I don’t bother with it. I was merely pointing out to **Baldwin** that this forum alone isn’t a good proof of widespread superior behavior by atheists. No, you were not. You were asserting that in most cases, atheist posts in this forum did not show moral or empathetic points. There’s a considerable difference between “No, atheists aren’t superior to theists in this capacity” and “No, most atheists in this forum post like arses” As for leading to mental paralysis; what I asked of you is only what you asked of Baldwin. You pointed out a premise for which a particular piece of evidence would convince you. I suggested an entirely similar premise with exactly the same evidence required. So i’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say, here. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/119 "2008-04-10T19:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] So for the terms of debate. Let’s establish something. Is there such a thing as a normative atheism with shared cultural values? If the answer is yes, then what I said is an indictment of all atheism. If the answer is no, then what I said reflects only upon the atheism that I choose for myself in the hypothetical scenario. [/QUOTE] The single shared idea which connects all atheism is the lack of belief in gods, to one extent or the other. The problem is that this is what you indicted. If you had wondered about something like atheist culture, or a particular argument against gods, then no, you wouldn’t have been talking about all atheists. But the entire concept of this thread was “What would it be like, for me, if I did not believe in a god?” - the one concept that _does_ bind all of atheism. By your posting that you don’t understand how anyone who did not believe in god could be anything other than a huge sociopath, you did indeed indict all atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723/120 "2008-04-10T19:18:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Then explain China that has a habit of murdering whole swaths of it’s people periodically over thousands of years. How does it still exist? China exists as it is in the short term. It will change drastically in the long term because of this behaviour (more accurately, because of the ideology of which that behaviour is a symptom), and far more than other countries (everything changes in the long term by virtue of existing, but this is a different scenario). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-decided-to-become-an-atheist-hypothetical/444723.md?page=7)