# I have discovered how amazing Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons are **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752 "2006-05-07T08:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/41 "2006-05-08T16:33:29Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Generally, really great women rock singers – **Chrissy Hynde** \ – don’t play an instrument. **Chuck** - Chrissie is very well-known for being a brilliant rhythm guitarist. As a songwriter, she is known for using off-time stuff and keeping players on their toes. She drives her drummer Martin Chambers nuts with the complexity of her playing… ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/42 "2006-05-08T17:40:17Z")
Part of me doesn’t want to continue the hijack about female rock singers, but a bigger part of me can’t believe that no one has mentioned Melissa Etheridge. 😃 (Or Paula Cole, or Mary Chapin Carpenter, or Shawn Colvin, or KT Tunstall, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/43 "2006-05-08T18:09:57Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > But some people are listening, and in the age of the Internet, with the advent of first Napster, and now MySpace, among other places, more people can listen than ever. Which is, slowly, changing the shape of music. I don’t think the revolution’s happened yet. These are just some precursors. > [@](#): > > Qualify it how? What Clear Channel says? If it’s not heard on Clear Channel stations it’s not…what? Worthwhile? Worth listening to? Worth anything? Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I don’t mean qualify the music, I just mean that some bounds have to be put on what a person mean when he or she talks about the music scene. Often when people talk about “music today,” they’re talking about either mainstream music, or indie, or the folk circuit, or whatever. I definitely get what **lissener** says about the pyramid of experience/expertise, and I do admit to playing a little bit of a devil’s advocate here, but if one is going to try to encompass the entire music scene, then there’s not much definitive that can really be said. I wouldn’t refute a statement about music today with a cite of some home recordings a friend of mine did. Not that they wouldn’t be valid in some contexts, but that context has to be chosen. That’s all I was trying to get at. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, what? All the money is being spent on mainstream music, so one should limit oneself to that? I’m not understanding that sentence. Yeah, that was poorly written. In light of what I just wrote above, what I meant was that choosing the most financially successful music venue as a context for opinions about music is a very valid, yet debatable, thing to do. > [@](#): > > Who is it? [Stephanie Corby](http://www.stephaniecorby.com/), who I stumbled upon a few years back when I went to see **The Nields** play with SDMBer **andygirl**. Stephanie was opening for The Nields, and I thought her per formance was great. I bought her CD, _Fireworks in March_, which continues to get relatively regular rotation in my stereo. One or two tracks I’m not such a huge fan of, but some real gems as well. > [@Equipoise](#): > > Right. It’s blanket statements like “In conclusion, today’s music is not to produce anything worthwhile” that bothers me. That’s so wrong on so many levels it leaves me speechless. I agree with you here 100%. Particularly because you don’t have to dig that far to find great music, nor has there ever been a lack of trite, smarmy pop in the history of modern rock and roll. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/44 "2006-05-08T20:01:42Z")
I’ve been getting into Japanese female singers. Maki, of High & Mighty Color, has an absolutely gorgeous voice. Aiko is a great singer-songwriter. She doesn’t have the greatest voice in the world, but her singing is wonderfully expressive and emotional. That’s the main thing that attracted me to her music - I can’t understand the words, but I can still feel the emotion in her singing. Aiko writes all of her own lyrics and composes her own music. She plays piano, though when she performs she just sings, and somebody else plays piano. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/45 "2006-05-08T21:35:45Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I definitely get what **lissener** says about the pyramid of experience/expertise, and I do admit to playing a little bit of a devil’s advocate here, but if one is going to try to encompass the entire music scene, then there’s not much definitive that can really be said. I wouldn’t refute a statement about music today with a cite of some home recordings a friend of mine did. Then it’s a good thing that nobody did anything remotely like that. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/46 "2006-05-08T22:23:35Z")
I caught myself singing along with Cheri Baby in the produce department last week. And I didn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/47 "2006-05-09T00:13:32Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I caught myself singing along with Cheri Baby in the produce department last week. And I didn’t care. It’s SHERRY. And, Frankie was whacked on the Sopranos because he’s a terrible actor. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/48 "2006-05-09T04:08:12Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Then it’s a good thing that nobody did anything remotely like that. Man, one of us is either doing a poor job of explaining or a poor job of understanding. Knowing me, it’s probably me on both counts. 🙂 I stepped into hyperbole there, but my point was that Joe Schmoe’s totally awesome home recordings are on a spectrum of music that’s available if one spends x amount of effort. I could have used “independantly released albums” and maybe sounded a little less dismissive. The point is just that you or I or whomever _automatically_ limits the discussion to music that you or I know or have been exposed to, and also leave out a great deal of music that we have no idea exists. To discuss pop/rock music with an eye mostly for the most pervasive, popular, well-known, and convenient songs will definitely leave a great deal out, but so would a discussion that included all of your musical knowledge as well. So, calling those who have either by choice or by circumstance limited the discussion to the former ignorant (which I realise was **Equipoise** ’s comment, not yours) is just a bit questionable. Sort of like if a neurologist called a proctologist ignorant about medicine because the proctologist had claimed that a lot of medicine had to do with butts. Of course, there’s the OB/GYN listening to the conversation from the other room who thinks they’re both off their rockers. Just because they each have specialized knowledge in their respective fields does not make them ignorant of medicine as a whole. What it does make them is non-experts. I don’t know… I think I started off ok but ended up in really convoluted territory, so I’ll end that there. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/49 "2006-05-09T05:22:11Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Just because they each have specialized knowledge in their respective fields does not make them ignorant of medicine as a whole. Then it’s a good thing that nobody suggested anything of the kind. Your devil’s advocacy insists on addressing nothing but extremes and false dichotomies, while almost everything that I, speaking only for myself, have said, has been about spectrums and pyramids; about the entire gamut of experience and expertise. You’re arguing with someone, but not with me. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/50 "2006-05-09T21:13:11Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Of course, there are also plenty of men who just sing – Van Morrison, Jim Morrison, Mick Jagger, Roger Daltry, Robert Plant, etc. Van Morrison just sings? You mean the Irish guy, right? The mult-instrumentalist iwho has written hundreds of songs? The guy who wrote all the attributed songs and played most of the lead instruments on this breathless masterpiece? [Poetis Champions Compose](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DDN/qid=1147209040/sr=1-13/ref=sr_1_13/103-1050681-2577442?s=music&v=glance&n=5174) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/51 "2006-05-10T15:58:57Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not many women, though: .Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Tori Amos are the few that come to mind. Karen Carpenter, quite possibly the finest female singer in the second half of the 20th Century. If not #1, certainly in the top 3. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/52 "2006-05-10T17:11:01Z")
Karen Carpenter is one of those people, like Doris Day, who had a GREAT voice, but mostly pretty terrible taste in music. Too bad; I’d’ve loved to hear her stretch outside her comfort zone a bit. And I can’t believe I left so many soul/R&B/motown singers off my list, above. How can I have listed Ella but not Aretha? Shame. And Gladys, and Etta, and Rose Murphy–and Patsy and Loretta and Tammy, and and and . . . there have truly been some great female singers in this century. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/53 "2006-05-10T19:41:09Z")
I don’t think that contemporary commercial music rewards vocal quality the way it used to; that may be why many singers with truly great voices have fled the commercial landscape for smaller niche markets where they are appreciated. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t good singers out there, though. Certainly opera, musicals and jazz have always favored vocal quality, and I believe that they always will. For those who feel that there aren’t talented female artists out there, I would encourage you to find Laney Goodman’s [Women In Music](http://www.womenonair.com/index.shtml) on a radio station near you. There is usually a solid hour of rebuttal to that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/54 "2006-05-10T22:29:08Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Just a few of the great voices of the 20th century, without much comment except that I don’t mention them randomly; the word “great” is intentional: > > [INDENT]Mary Margaret O’Hara\* > > … > > \*If I had to pick a single voice as my one favorite, it might be Mary Margaret O’Hara. > > … For anyone who’s interested, I’ve just found out (thanks to Equipoise) that Mary Margaret’s album, [_Miss America_,](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001SM8/qid=1147299245/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-8739496-2060661?s=music&v=glance&n=5174) has just been rereleased. This album has been firmly ensconced in my top three of all time for about 15 years now. My top 10 fluctuates wildly, but this album has never fallen below 3 on that list for as long as I’ve known it. And even among the other top 3, _Miss America_ is somehow the only album I have that, though I’ve listened to it, must be thousands of times, I can put it on any time and be transported. _Caveat_: I didn’t much like it the first time I heard it: too _quirky_. It confounds your expectations at every turn. But once I found a way to fold myself into it, I never wanted to climb out. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/55 "2006-05-11T20:03:06Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Karen Carpenter is one of those people, like Doris Day, who had a GREAT voice, but mostly pretty terrible taste in music. Too bad; I’d’ve loved to hear her stretch outside her comfort zone a bit. Not that I’m a huge fan of Karen Carpenter’s, but the subjectivity in your statement makes it tough to take you as an authority on female voice/music. I tend toward liking more distinctive voices, but there’s no denying she had a pure voice, and good control. Cem ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/56 "2006-05-11T20:22:57Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > Not that I’m a huge fan of Karen Carpenter’s, but the subjectivity in your statement makes it tough to take you as an authority on female voice/music. I’m curious: how do you speak objectively about the quality of someone’s voice or their taste in music? I was under the impression that someone who’s an authority on female music would have been exposed to a broad range of it, not that they’d manage to identify greatness according to some objective chart. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/57 "2006-05-13T03:07:13Z")
> [@Interrobang!?](#): > > I’m curious: how do you speak objectively about the quality of someone’s voice or their taste in music? I was under the impression that someone who’s an authority on female music would have been exposed to a broad range of it, not that they’d manage to identify greatness according to some objective chart. The quality of the voice is easy to speak about objectively. vocal rang, clearness of tone, how strong their voice is, all of these are easily objectified. Ask a vocal teacher. As for taste, that is subjective. ---
**Author:** ![blueserge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@blueserge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueserge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/58 "2006-05-13T03:27:11Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > \*\*Opus 17 \*\* is currently my favorite Four Seasons tune. Its in heavy rotation on my MP-3 player. Beat me to it! Brilliant little gem; unusual structure for a pop song. My favorite of all their tunes. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/59 "2006-05-13T03:54:52Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > vocal rang, clearness of tone, how strong their voice is, all of these are easily objectified. Good point. I was being overbroad in my use of “quality,” here – people like Bob Dylan and Elvis Costello may not have great vocal quality, but they’re still great singers. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752/60 "2006-05-13T14:17:57Z")
Even so, hearing a large quantity of singers doesn’t make anyone any more capable of saying who is good and who is not. It’s not like someone has heard everyone. Every single ‘singer’ and then can say ‘with authority’ that ‘this one is better than that one’. Each peson can only say “These are my favorites”. And, IMHO, when it comes to music, each individual is able to judge for themselves. (as long as they are not completly deaf) If you like it, it is good music. If you don’t like it, it isn’t good music. And you should never, ever, listen to something, just because some authority told it was good. You should try it, and if you don’t like it, it doesn’t mean that you are ignorant. It just is not good music, to you. Oh and BTW (range) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-discovered-how-amazing-frankie-valli-and-the-four-seasons-are/355752.md?page=4)