# I have not been getting equal access to all the numbers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 27, 2008, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683 "2008-11-27T08:18:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/1 "2008-11-27T08:18:51Z")
[Game Science 1](http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU) [Game Science 2](http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34) This guy is great. I think I could watch him talk about dice for 48 hours straight. There is a great joke at the end of part 2 Bitches don’t know shit about his dice. Check out the comments they are great. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/2 "2008-11-27T08:51:59Z")
I have no use at all for his products, but I would buy dice from that man. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/3 "2008-11-27T12:10:48Z")
I hadn’t gotten his pitch before since I usually run through the dealer room grabbing the stuff that I was specifically looking for. I’m sold; next time I run into him I’m buying a few sets. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/4 "2008-11-27T13:40:55Z")
> [@fifty-six](#): > > There is a great joke at the end of part 2 And a cute joke in the credits. Those videos were very informative. I love it when science is explained simply and plainly. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/5 "2008-11-27T16:56:02Z")
Any particular reason he still refers to them in the plural when he’s only talking about one die? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/6 "2008-11-27T18:11:26Z")
It is good to see someone so committed to what he does. He just wants to do it right. How much more do his dice cost? ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/7 "2008-11-27T21:52:12Z")
Whether the dice roll for a long time doesn’t have anything to do with how much they randomize. That’s just silly. The reason casino dice have square corners is because it’s easier to do quality control on them. As he says, it’s very easy to tell if a die has had its edges shaved if the edges start square. It’s difficult to tell if the edges have been shaved if the edges started life rounded. But “they impart their energy to make random numbers because they stop rolling faster” schtick is a load of hot air. ---
**Author:** ![A.I.Wintermute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@A.I.Wintermute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.I.Wintermute)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/8 "2008-11-27T22:35:16Z")
> [@Tenebras](#): > > Whether the dice roll for a long time doesn’t have anything to do with how much they randomize. That’s just silly. The reason casino dice have square corners is because it’s easier to do quality control on them. As he says, it’s very easy to tell if a die has had its edges shaved if the edges start square. It’s difficult to tell if the edges have been shaved if the edges started life rounded. But “they impart their energy to make random numbers because they stop rolling faster” schtick is a load of hot air. The point is uniformity. If the edges of some of the sides are rounder than the sides of others, the sides opposite the rounded ones will not come up as often. If the edges are rounded by design, and uniformly so, then you’d be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/9 "2008-11-27T23:30:08Z")
Which is what I said. He starts the first video by saying: I’m here to tell you some things I think you don’t know about polyhedra [sic] dice shapes. Then in the second video, at the 3:00 mark, he does a dice rolling test with his dice (red) and some other dice (orange) from his competitors. His red dice have hard edges and the orange dice have rounded edges. Here’s the transcript from the three minute mark. > [@](#): > > What i’m going to do is roll all four of these dice with one hand at the same time and when I release the dice they will all have a uniform amount of energy. And you will see the round edge dice continue in motion while my dice, the red ones, stop, because the eges are going to do what the edges are supposed to do: they’re going to give me a random outcome. [Rolls dice. Orange dice roll farther than red dice.] Did you see how the orange ones continued to move? [Rolls dice again, orange dice roll much farther than red dice.] > > Now I have a lot of people come over here and they don’t know what they’re talking about and they say “Oh I like them rounded edge dice–it takes them a long time to stop that makes them really interesting.” But it’s not supposed to be that way. That’s why casinos have sharp edges on their dice: to give you random outcomes. In this section of the video has Mr. Zocchi, whether he believes it or not, asserts that sharp edges on the edges of dice make for random outcomes, while rounded edges do not. This is the part that I was calling out, as it is stupid. The reason casinos have sharp edges on their dice is that it makes it easier to detect imperfections–intentional or not. Listening to these videos, it sounds like there is some kind of random energy, and only sharp edges can convert kinetic energy into random energy. Rounded edges, of course, convert kinetic energy into character-killing energy. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/10 "2008-11-27T23:47:43Z")
I interpret what he’s saying very differently from you. I don’t know how you draw “they impart their energy to make random numbers because they stop rolling faster” from what he said. He’s saying that his dice have a uniform amount of energy because they are all identical, whereas the inferior dice with rounded edges give favored results because they are not uniform. Uniformness leads to randomness. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/11 "2008-11-28T00:40:46Z")
What he is saying is that dice with rounded edges simply roll over and over, like a ball. So a die roller could maximize the chance of a particular set of outcomes simply by how he/she rolls the die. With sharp corners and edges, the die is more likely to change its axis of spin and, thus, be more random as to how it rolls. Whether or not this is part of why casino dice are made with sharp edges and corners, I don’t know. I would hesitate to say he is wrong in this assertion without being in the gaming business myself. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/12 "2008-11-28T01:33:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I interpret what he’s saying very differently from you. I don’t know how you draw “they impart their energy to make random numbers because they stop rolling faster” from what he said. I get “they impart their energy to make random numbers” from “because the edges are going to do what the edges are supposed to do: they’re going to give me a random outcome.” He attributes the randomness of the outcomes to the edges of the dice. > [@Liberal](#): > > He’s saying that his dice have a uniform amount of energy because they are all identical, whereas the inferior dice with rounded edges give favored results because they are not uniform. Uniformness leads to randomness. His “uniform energy” is explicitly _not_ something to do with the faces of his dice. The uniform energy is the kinetic energy imparted to the four dice (two red, two orange) when he throws them all out of his hand at the same time. The point of the demonstration is that his dice stop rolling sooner than the cheap dice, and that makes them better. Now, it is true that it is easier to check whether a die with sharp corners has uniform sides, but it is not true that having sharp corners makes the die give more random results. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What he is saying is that dice with rounded edges simply roll over and over, like a ball. So a die roller could maximize the chance of a particular set of outcomes simply by how he/she rolls the die. With sharp corners and edges, the die is more likely to change its axis of spin and, thus, be more random as to how it rolls. > > Whether or not this is part of why casino dice are made with sharp edges and corners, I don’t know. I would hesitate to say he is wrong in this assertion without being in the gaming business myself. That’s not what he’s saying. The whole presentation is about the difference between his dice and the cheaper dice. The way the cheaper dice are produced involves two phases of tumbling in a rock polisher to make them pretty. If you start with a die which has a small imbalance, this process will tend to amplify that imbalance and give you a die which is shaped like a river stone: elongated along one axis. The process of making the dice gives them their biases. Casino dice are made with hard edges and sharp corners because it makes it easier to detect worn out dice or dice that have been tampered with. You can just put the dice against each other and feel for a seam. If the edges have been rounded–on purpose to make one side more likely to come up than another or through simple wear–there will be a detectable seam. The way that casinos ensure you’re not cheating their dice by your throwing mechanics is to require that dice throws hit the back wall of the table. The back wall has a series of raised bumps. When the dice hit those bumps it causes them to tumble randomly. That’s why the casino doesn’t care how you hold the dice in your hands, just so long as you throw them hard enough to bounce off the back wall. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/13 "2008-11-28T02:57:56Z")
Okay, there may be some amount of balderdash in the sales pitch. But it’s a great sales pitch. Sign me up for some Zocchi dice. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/14 "2008-11-28T13:17:02Z")
> [@Tenebras](#): > > That’s not what he’s saying. The whole presentation is about the difference between his dice and the cheaper dice. The way the cheaper dice are produced involves two phases of tumbling in a rock polisher to make them pretty. If you start with a die which has a small imbalance, this process will tend to amplify that imbalance and give you a die which is shaped like a river stone: elongated along one axis. The process of making the dice gives them their biases. > > Casino dice are made with hard edges and sharp corners because it makes it easier to detect worn out dice or dice that have been tampered with. You can just put the dice against each other and feel for a seam. If the edges have been rounded–on purpose to make one side more likely to come up than another or through simple wear–there will be a detectable seam. The way that casinos ensure you’re not cheating their dice by your throwing mechanics is to require that dice throws hit the back wall of the table. The back wall has a series of raised bumps. When the dice hit those bumps it causes them to tumble randomly. That’s why the casino doesn’t care how you hold the dice in your hands, just so long as you throw them hard enough to bounce off the back wall. Your continued assertion that this is what he is saying is not correct, in the opinion of others who have listened to the video. While he was making the point about oblong dice earlier, his argument at the point in the video we are discussing is no longer about oblong dice, but rather about the mechanics of dice when they are actually rolling across the table. As you point out in the part I did not copy into my response here, he is saying the fact his dice stop earlier is a benefit; they are more random because energy is used up making directional changes caused by the pointed vertices and sharp edges. When you point this out, you contradict yourself as to what you are saying above. Now, you assert that a casino isn’t interested in the shape of the dice for any reason other than to make it easier to tell if they are altered. I assert that this statement may not be true. And, frankly, unless you are someone who is involved in the casino business, you don’t know for sure, either. If you ARE someone with inside knowledge, please explain and I’ll be happy to give more weight to your statements. But even with a different shape, a casino could tell significant alteration without too much trouble. Further, the ppint about what happens to a die with sharp corners and edges versus round corners and edges that the man makes in the video is VALID. They WILL be more random, for precisely the reason he states. And yes, the casino prefers you hit the back wall, because that makes things even more random, but not for the reason you think; they want you to hit the back wall to avoid the possibility that you are tossing the dice in a way that they land without much roll. Hitting the back wall helps ensure you can’t do this. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/15 "2008-11-28T13:54:41Z")
I interpreted his statement to mean that the longer the dice roll around on the ground, the more the outcome will be affected by any imperfections in their structure – a slightly oblong-shaped d20 will come to rest on one side of its shorter axis much more frequently if the edges are rounded, thus giving the die more opportunities to arrive at its lowest center of gravity. Since he’s not claiming that his dice are _perfect_, sharp edges matter. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-not-been-getting-equal-access-to-all-the-numbers/474683/16 "2008-11-28T14:50:35Z")
That man is wasted in the dice manufacturing industry. Why is he not working for NASA?