# I have strong negative emotions toward the music of Elvis Costello **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 25, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128 "2013-12-25T04:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/41 "2013-12-26T10:14:25Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > It’s interesting that Sting was mentioned, as he has the same flaw to me: smug, ego-driven, narcissistic vibe. He seems really into his own shit. I realize this is subjective, but I just don’t get this assessment. Elvis, if anything, deliberately (or perhaps unavoidably?) embraced a sort of “fuck you” geekiness. He was kind of an anti-narcissist in that sense, from his Buddy Holly glasses to his primal, “so NOT Michael Jackson” moves while performing. If I got a vibe from him it was not, “Oh, listen to me be clever,” it was “I don’t give a shit what you think of me.” Perhaps that was calculated, I don’t know. I do think the analogy with Sting is apt in this sense: they were the less-common rock performers who did not obscure just how smart they were, and that’s not a selling point typically. Not in pop or rock, not if you want to sell lots of records. But it never felt like “look at me!” smart, not for Elvis, anyway. He was more like the chess club genius dweeb in high school, only this one didn’t cower, hiding or apologizing for the fact that he’s really bright. He certainly had an ego which, as WordMan pointed out, certainly makes him the rule, not the exception, in performers. I get that some performers just rub us the wrong way though, but your explanation seems forced. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/42 "2013-12-26T15:09:42Z")
His voice can sound very strained even though he sings well, and it’s easy to detect a lot of ego or a sense that he’s pleased with himself in his lyrics. Still, he’s written a lot of great songs and always seems to be testing his own limits by working with other artists and in different genres. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/43 "2013-12-26T15:29:05Z")
I’m a big fan of Elvis Costello and his work. I agree with what some others have said - he’s not a great performer (although I think he’s good) but he’s one of the best out there at crafting music. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/44 "2013-12-26T16:07:42Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > My favorite story about Elvis Costello: Chrissie Hynde once beat him up in a bar! (because he was an asshole) > > I love his music, mostly the early stuff; but he was clearly an asshole, judging from his lyrics. Do you have a cite for this? I have searched and found nothing. I found this site which suggests nothing but respect between the two: [http://www.pretenders.org/arelvis.htm](http://www.pretenders.org/arelvis.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/45 "2013-12-26T16:12:00Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > My favorite story about Elvis Costello: Chrissie Hynde once beat him up in a bar! (because he was an asshole) Bonnie Bramlett. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/46 "2013-12-26T16:13:58Z")
I’m guessing the Chrissie Hynde thing is a garbled version of the story about Stephen Stills and Bonnie Bramlett. And don’t think any singer ever punched him out; it’s just an exaggeration of Bonnie Bramlett being offended and telling the press what Costello had said. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/47 "2013-12-26T16:25:49Z")
This is an interesting thread. In my circle of acquaintances, there is quite a wide assortment of tastes. Hell, I know people who hate the Beatles, for Pete’s sake. But I’ve never encountered strong Elvis hate before. The reaction has mainly ranged from the positive (anything from “Yeah, he’s pretty good” to accolades) to apathy as the low end. Was not aware there was this kind of Elvis animus before. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/48 "2013-12-26T22:43:44Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Hell, I know people who hate the Beatles, for Pete’s sake. So they only liked the early Hamburg stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/49 "2013-12-26T23:01:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So they only liked the early Hamburg stuff? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/50 "2013-12-27T01:51:34Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So they only liked the early Hamburg stuff? Like. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/51 "2013-12-27T07:31:17Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I realize this is subjective, but I just don’t get this assessment. Elvis, if anything, deliberately (or perhaps unavoidably?) embraced a sort of “fuck you” geekiness. That’s an apt description. > [@](#): > > He was kind of an anti-narcissist in that sense, from his Buddy Holly glasses to his primal, “so NOT Michael Jackson” moves while performing. I don’t see how that makes him an anti-narcissist. Is it because you find his image self-deprecating? If so, I don’t agree. The narcissism comes through in his inward-turning, too-cool-for-school lyrics and the way he sings. > [@](#): > > If I got a vibe from him it was not, “Oh, listen to me be clever,” it was “I don’t give a shit what you think of me.” I think it’s both at once! > [@](#): > > I do think the analogy with Sting is apt in this sense: they were the less-common rock performers who did not obscure just how smart they were, and that’s not a selling point typically. Not in pop or rock, not if you want to sell lots of records. But it never felt like “look at me!” smart, not for Elvis, anyway. He was more like the chess club genius dweeb in high school, only this one didn’t cower, hiding or apologizing for the fact that he’s really bright. I think there are a lot of very smart artists out there and many that don’t hide it. For me, the difference with Sting and Elvis is not that they have big egos but that the **ego comes through in the music itself.** > [@](#): > > This is an interesting thread. In my circle of acquaintances, there is quite a wide assortment of tastes. Hell, I know people who hate the Beatles, for Pete’s sake. But I’ve never encountered strong Elvis hate before. The reaction has mainly ranged from the positive (anything from “Yeah, he’s pretty good” to accolades) to apathy as the low end. Was not aware there was this kind of Elvis animus before. That is an interesting point. I think the time, degree, and nature of EC’s original success created a moderate number of big fans, not a lot of haters, and not a lot of people who really know him or his music all that well, really. He had a couple durable hits long ago but was never forced down our throats by the music machine. As I said, in the OP, he was not on my radar at all in the 80s. I liked his song “Alison,” so I had a mildly positive opinion of him until recently. But I felt that I ought to know what the fuss about him was (on the part of Rock Criticdom), so I decided to educate myself a bit more and just really haven’t enjoyed what I’ve found. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/52 "2013-12-27T08:01:16Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The narcissism comes through in his inward-turning, too-cool-for-school lyrics and the way he sings. You’ve mentioned this several times. Can you give any examples. If you can’t think of any songs here is [The Top 20 Elvis Costello Songs](http://www.americansongwriter.com/2013/02/the-top-20-elvis-costello-songs/) from [American Songwriter](http://www.americansongwriter.com/)’s countdown of his top 100. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/53 "2013-12-27T08:14:06Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > You’ve mentioned this several times. Can you give any examples. If you can’t think of any songs here is [The Top 20 Elvis Costello Songs](http://www.americansongwriter.com/2013/02/the-top-20-elvis-costello-songs/) from [American Songwriter](http://www.americansongwriter.com/)’s countdown of his top 100. If I really thought you were interested in my thoughts… lol. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/54 "2013-12-27T08:22:05Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > You’ve mentioned this several times. Can you give any examples. If you can’t think of any songs here is [The Top 20 Elvis Costello Songs](http://www.americansongwriter.com/2013/02/the-top-20-elvis-costello-songs/) from [American Songwriter](http://www.americansongwriter.com/)’s countdown of his top 100. Hey, but I did go to the link and listened to the No. 1 song (selected by this dude): “Man Out of Time.” OUCH! Horrible, horrible vocals, and here we have ultra-clever lyrics (actually, in this case, fairly unintelligible): But for his private wife and kids somehow Real life becomes a rumour Days of dutch courage Just three French letters and a German sense of humour My reaction to this is, “WhatEVerrr.” This _is_ the kind of lyrics that seem narcissistic to me. A bunch of jokes for his own brain to contemplate, not something he wants to communicate to _me._ I don’t feel invited into the conversation. And his stuff _usually_ comes across this way: word salad with meanings to be teased out because, it’s gotta be worth it, right? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/55 "2013-12-27T08:40:43Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > If I really thought you were interested in my thoughts… lol. Well, you can choose to just deflect the question if you like. No skin off my nose, but I am genuinely puzzled by what you mean by his narcissism. It seems a weird criticism to make of a songwriter. Sort of like complaining that someone talked about themself too much in their autobiography. Here at [Performing Songwriter](http://performingsongwriter.com/elvis-costello-songs/) he talks about a few of his songs. He seems very self aware in terms of what he is writing: > [@](#): > > “Man Out of Time” > > Originally, it was a very uptempo, aggressive song. I had made this mistake several times. At the time of Imperial Bedroom, I came to terms with the fact that I was sacrificing the power of certain songs to this mad pursuit of tempo. Everything had to be delivered forcefully. I don’t know whether it was just a natural process or, literally, cumulative exhaustion of what were very intense years. “Man Out of Time” is the one time I said, “No, stop. Let’s play this at the right tempo.” And we went for this bigger, more open sound. I think it’s a really good record. A lot of songs are about the sort of disgust with your own self. There were a lot of things that I wasn’t very happy with during that time. I wanted songs to blow up the world. I had mad ambitions. Not mad as in “ambition to be famous.” I never wanted that. That just came as an accident of it all. But somehow you look at yourself and you’re not happy with what you see. I didn’t want to write a self-regarding song, so I cast it in the clothes of political intrigue and what was going on in the world at that time. There was a famous political scandal in England going on then. It all sort of got wrapped up in the song. Sometimes a song will have a personal meaning and a public meaning. “Man Out of Time” is one of those Anyhow, if you think I’m just taking the piss, so be it. ETA The choice of quote was entirely coincidental but interesting, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/56 "2013-12-27T14:24:00Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Horrible, horrible vocals, and here we have ultra-clever lyrics (actually, in this case, fairly unintelligible): > > But for his private wife and kids somehow > Real life becomes a rumour > Days of dutch courage > Just three French letters and a German sense of humour > > My reaction to this is, “WhatEVerrr.” > > This _is_ the kind of lyrics that seem narcissistic to me. A bunch of jokes for his own brain to contemplate, not something he wants to communicate to _me._ I don’t feel invited into the conversation. > > And his stuff _usually_ comes across this way: word salad with meanings to be teased out because, it’s gotta be worth it, right? Dutch courage is courage fueled by alcohol. French letters are condoms. I suspect you aren’t really open to interpreting, but in case anyone else wondered. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/57 "2013-12-27T14:34:45Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > But for his private wife and kids somehow > Real life becomes a rumour > Days of dutch courage > Just three French letters and a German sense of humour > > My reaction to this is, “WhatEVerrr.” > > This _is_ the kind of lyrics that seem narcissistic to me. A bunch of jokes for his own brain to contemplate, not something he wants to communicate to _me._ I don’t feel invited into the conversation. It is fascinating and ironic to read this in The Straight Dope, a board explicitly intended to celebrate cool, smart things. There is nothing difficult about the lyrics - the references are arch, but pretty common, and the wordplay with the nationalities is cynically witty, the effect he was intending. If you pointed out Sting’s pretentious crap like his line about Nabokov or that line “I will turn your face to alabaster, when you see the servant is the master” I’d be with you - that’s not what Costello is doing here. So far, all you’ve done in this thread is make is clear you don’t _want_ to like EC. That’s totally cool, but your critiques aren’t doing you any favors. I’m finding the overall discussion interesting, but haven’t heard you come up with anything besides “he is teh suxx!!!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/58 "2013-12-27T14:58:39Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > It is fascinating and ironic to read this in The Straight Dope, a board explicitly intended to celebrate cool, smart things. Actually, the Dope is _explicitly_ intended to fight ignorance. Yet that doesn’t change the applicability of your answer a whit; it may even strengthen it. > [@WordMan](#): > > So far, all you’ve done in this thread is make is clear you don’t _want_ to like EC. That’s totally cool, but your critiques aren’t doing you any favors. I’m finding the overall discussion interesting, but haven’t heard you come up with anything besides “he is teh suxx!!!” :rolleyes: This post is the roxor. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jrsone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jrsone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrsone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/59 "2013-12-27T15:12:16Z")
I’m a fan, both of his older, classic stuff and a lot of his newer stuff. The Delivery Man (Which is now 10 years old, I guess isn’t so new anymore!) is one of my faves. I can see why people might not like him though. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128/60 "2013-12-27T15:14:54Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > First, this is unwatchable. His dancing, body language, and facial expressions are just intolerable. Hate hate hate. You can like or dislike whoever you want for whatever reason strikes your fancy. Looking at this as a conversation, though, it seems like you just don’t like the guy and are grasping for reasons and interpreting everything in the worst light you can think of- which is less than fair and doesn’t make for very good discussion. > [@Aeschines](#): > > I don’t feel invited into the conversation. Again, this doesn’t seem like a relevant criticism. Some artists are difficult and some aren’t, but one isn’t better than the other. I’m wondering if you’re just offended that the guy dares to present himself as an intelligent musician without doing what you like. If we’re listing positive stuff, I think the lyrics to She’s Pulling Out the Pin/(She Might Be a) Grenade are really brilliant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-have-strong-negative-emotions-toward-the-music-of-elvis-costello/677128.md?page=4)