# I Heard My Father's 'Ghost' Yesterday. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586 "2012-01-25T07:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/61 "2012-01-26T16:30:26Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I would take that further and say we _never_ accurately perceive the world around us. We’re incapable of perceiving some of it, and for the rest we’re designed (in the schematic, functional sense) to only perceive it in an approximate and digested form. Without getting too philosophical about it, I’ll agree that we don’t realize how much editing and selecting our brains do and how much our perceptions are affected by what we expect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/62 "2012-01-26T16:30:31Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > We’ve developed the scientific method about as much as we’ve developed language. It’s simply how we function coming into this world. It is part of what we are, science, language, art, religion, etc, it’s all one package and all there because it’s how we function best, not because in our wisdom we developed it. Good luck taking it apart and discarding the inconvenient bits. And what would those “inconvenient bits” of science be? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/63 "2012-01-26T16:33:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve read and understood your posts(small side note: What is it with some people that think that the only reason people disagree with them is because they just don’t understand what is being put forth?) > You want ghosts to be considered a possibility, and I am asking you for evidence that ghosts should even be considered, beyond the fact that you can type the word “ghosts”. I have shown you direct evidence that ventriloquist cats should be considered, and I have asked you to do the same for ghosts. > Note to moderators-this isn’t a “joke” response. I really want to know why my example, for which there is just a little evidence, should be discarded when there is _no_ evidence for the existence of ghosts. No you haven’t bothered to read or understand it. At least Marley23 had a reasonable response because he actually read what I wrote, eventhough it was considered a big pile of something. You aren’t even responding to my point. You simiply want to turn this into “show me evidence for ghosts”, which is just shilling for ‘there is no evidence for ghosts’. Stop it please or I’ll sick a ghost on you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/64 "2012-01-26T16:33:43Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > It’s simply how we function coming into this world. Not at all. It’s true that we developed the scientific method and we ourselves are flawed, but unlike many of our other tools, the scientific method is not just intended to record or reflect our perceptions. It’s intended to take out some of the parts of our perceptions that can be unreliable and focus on things like verifiability and repeatability. That’s different from a medium of impressions and communication. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/65 "2012-01-26T16:36:21Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > No you haven’t bothered to read or understand it. At least Marley23 had a reasonable response because he actually read what I wrote, eventhough it was considered a big pile of something. You aren’t even responding to my point. You simiply want to turn this into “show me evidence for ghosts”, which is just shilling for ‘there is no evidence for ghosts’. Stop it please or I’ll sick a ghost on you. Read it. Understand it. It is nonsense. edited to add-You seem to be doing a variation of _The Emperor’s New Clothes_, but in your version the fancy clothes exist…but the Emperor is missing. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/66 "2012-01-26T16:42:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Read it. > Understand it. > It is nonsense. > edited to add-You seem to be doing a variation of _The Emperor’s New Clothes_, but in your version the fancy clothes exist…but the Emperor is missing. I warned you, expect three ghosts this evening. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/67 "2012-01-26T17:52:15Z")
As promisd, here are my two experiences, one is of my dead brother and the second is only tangential to the topic but of the type “unusual consciousness experience” 1. I was in the pre-waking up sleep state. Dreamed I was in bed, someone opend the door to the room, my brother walks in silent and unemotional. I look at him, get out of bed, walk over to him and hug hiim. No response, he just stands there mute and looking at me. I then wake up, feeling very much like I had just had an encounter with my brother and at the same time re-remembering that he had died a year earlier. My conclusion is that my brother’s spirit visited me in my sleep to say good by perhaps. 2. An altered consciousness experience. A few years ago I was in my doctor’s office. At some point I felt dizzy and passed out. Or at least my doctor would have seen me pass out. I never lost consciousness, I was aware the entire time. Except that when I “passed out” I was somewhere else, not sure where, but it was close to a sea or river and someone, not sure who, was giving me directions on how to navigate a boat down stream or along the coast and where I had to go. All this time, I was conscious of being me (you know, the sense we have of being ourselves) except I had no memory of my present life up to that point in time. It felt as if I was experiencing a deeper self, the part of me that would always be me regardless of what life experiences, decisions, and event might shape who I am. I felt very peaceful. At some point that world and my doctor’s office where superimposed in my awareness, I could experience the doctor trying to get me to “wake up” and feeling that I was being torn out of that world back into my doctor’s office and not wanting that to happen, but needing to since I had a family to take care of. When I came back, my doctor explained that had gone stiff as a board and stopped breathing and he was desperately trying to get to breath again the entire time, about 2 minutes he thought. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/68 "2012-01-26T18:01:44Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > As promisd, here are my two experiences, one is of my dead brother and the second is only tangential to the topic but of the type “unusual consciousness experience” > > 1. I was in the pre-waking up sleep state. Dreamed I was in bed, someone opend the door to the room, my brother walks in silent and unemotional. I look at him, get out of bed, walk over to him and hug hiim. No response, he just stands there mute and looking at me. I then wake up, feeling very much like I had just had an encounter with my brother and at the same time re-remembering that he had died a year earlier. My conclusion is that my brother’s spirit visited me in my sleep to say good by perhaps. If this is your story and your conclusion, then we have a _big_ problem here. What, pray tell, made you throw out the obvious answer(you were dreaming) in favor for the one for which there is no solid evidence(ghosts)? Your account and conclusion casts a disturbing shadow on any other arguments you make on this subject. > [@mishagoe](#): > > 1. An altered consciousness experience. A few years ago I was in my doctor’s office. At some point I felt dizzy and passed out. Or at least my doctor would have seen me pass out. I never lost consciousness, I was aware the entire time. Except that when I “passed out” I was somewhere else, not sure where, but it was close to a sea or river and someone, not sure who, was giving me directions on how to navigate a boat down stream or along the coast and where I had to go. All this time, I was conscious of being me (you know, the sense we have of being ourselves) except I had no memory of my present life up to that point in time. It felt as if I was experiencing a deeper self, the part of me that would always be me regardless of what life experiences, decisions, and event might shape who I am. I felt very peaceful. At some point that world and my doctor’s office where superimposed in my awareness, I could experience the doctor trying to get me to “wake up” and feeling that I was being torn out of that world back into my doctor’s office and not wanting that to happen, but needing to since I had a family to take care of. When I came back, my doctor explained that had gone stiff as a board and stopped breathing and he was desperately trying to get to breath again the entire time, about 2 minutes he thought. You passed out and had a dream-same as your first story, and it casts the same dark cloud on your ability to properly reason. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/69 "2012-01-26T18:03:11Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > My conclusion is that my brother’s spirit visited me in my sleep to say good by perhaps. Whatever particular meaning you draw from it, you had a dream- end of story. This isn’t something that requires further explanation or defies our scientific understanding of the world. It’s not even really a supernatural event as most people would define it. > [@](#): > > 1. An altered consciousness experience. I’m not surprised you saw something after you stopped breathing and passed out (it’s not uncommon because your brain was deprived of oxygen). Aside from your interpretation of it - did you ever look into why this happened? Healthy people don’t usually pass out and stop breathing for no reason and there may be something you should investigate here. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/70 "2012-01-26T18:33:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this is your story and your conclusion, then we have a _big_ problem here. What, pray tell, made you throw out the obvious answer(you were dreaming) in favor for the one for which there is no solid evidence(ghosts)? Your account and conclusion casts a disturbing shadow on any other arguments you make on this subject. You passed out and had a dream-same as your first story, and it casts the same dark cloud on your ability to properly reason. I’m not epxecting nor asking for your validation. Perhaps after tonight you too will have three experiences to share, right after the three ghost set you straight about a few things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/71 "2012-01-26T18:38:31Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I’m not epxecting nor asking for your validation. Perhaps after tonight you too will have three experiences to share, right after the three ghost set you straight about a few things. I’ve seen this “safety net” approach far too often. You will accept conversation that confirms and supports your stories and opinions, but any criticism is dismissed because you supposedly have no need for validation. It looks to me like the _only_ thing you are looking for is unquestioning validation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/72 "2012-01-26T18:39:45Z")
Oh, and the “three ghosts” thing you think is so clever? It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/73 "2012-01-26T18:42:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Whatever particular meaning you draw from it, you had a dream- end of story. This isn’t something that requires further explanation or defies our scientific understanding of the world. It’s not even really a supernatural event as most people would define it. > I’m not surprised you saw something after you stopped breathing and passed out (it’s not uncommon because your brain was deprived of oxygen). Aside from your interpretation of it - did you ever look into why this happened? Healthy people don’t usually pass out and stop breathing for no reason and there may be something you should investigate here. 1. That is a matter of interpretation. It sure felt supernatural to me. But I can see where it wouldn’t qualify as supernatural for you. Seeing it as purely a dream is actually pretty staight foward. It is quite a stretch to see it as an encounter with my dead brother, but that is exactly what it felt like. 2. Yes, I am very healthy. That isn’t the salient aspect of the experience. From the doctor’s point of view I was unconscious. From my point of view I was aware the entire time. I quite literally was in a different space. The two states then superimposed, both the physical spaces and the, I guess, deeper self and the self with all of my experienced life history. Those are the salient aspects for me of this experience. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/74 "2012-01-26T18:48:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Oh, and the “three ghosts” thing you think is so clever? > It isn’t. I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/75 "2012-01-26T18:54:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve seen this “safety net” approach far too often. You will accept conversation that confirms and supports your stories and opinions, but any criticism is dismissed because you supposedly have no need for validation. It looks to me like the _only_ thing you are looking for is unquestioning validation. You know I could maybe take you more seriously, but you come out the gate with both guns blazzing away and then expect me to sit there and be nice to you. I’ve explained exactly what I think about the topic. I have not much more to add at this time. You have expressed your deep disdain for my logic and conclusions. You don’t have to agree with me. Go in peace my friend. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/76 "2012-01-26T18:58:00Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > 1. That is a matter of interpretation. No, it’s not. You said yourself that it was a dream. > [@](#): > > It sure felt supernatural to me. I understand that, but that doesn’t make it so. > [@](#): > > Seeing it as purely a dream is actually pretty staight foward. Particularly since you said it was a dream. You’re not the first person to speak to a departed loved one in a dream and find meaning in it. That doesn’t make it anything other than a dream. > [@](#): > > From the doctor’s point of view I was unconscious. From my point of view I was aware the entire time. You _were_ unconscious. You realize this is pretty much the same as the dream, right? When you’re dreaming, you are unconscious but parts of your brain remain active. That doesn’t mean the experiences you have in those dreams are really taking place in the external world. You lost consciousness, you apparently stopped breathing, and you “felt” something. Does that mean your feelings reflect some kind of reality? No, not any more than your dreams do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/77 "2012-01-26T19:00:31Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > You know I could maybe take you more seriously, but you come out the gate with both guns blazzing away and then expect me to sit there and be nice to you. I’ve explained exactly what I think about the topic. I have not much more to add at this time. You have expressed your deep disdain for my logic and conclusions. You don’t have to agree with me. Go in peace my friend. Since this isn’t your personal blog, I _don’t_ have to agree with you. For that same reason, I am under no compulsion to make your life less complicated by leaving. If you don’t wish to have your stories questioned, I think there are two solutions available to you: 1. Post them in a blog that you control. 2. Don’t post them at all. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/78 "2012-01-26T19:17:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it’s not. You said yourself that it was a dream. > I understand that, but that doesn’t make it so. > Particularly since you said it was a dream. You’re not the first person to speak to a departed loved one in a dream and find meaning in it. That doesn’t make it anything other than a dream. > You _were_ unconscious. You realize this is pretty much the same as the dream, right? When you’re dreaming, you are unconscious but parts of your brain remain active. That doesn’t mean the experiences you have in those dreams are really taking place in the external world. You lost consciousness, you apparently stopped breathing, and you “felt” something. Does that mean your feelings reflect some kind of reality? No, not any more than your dreams do. 1. Yes, I agree my conclusion that the dream was an encounter with my brother’s spirit/energy/whatever is objectively unsupportable. Yes it was a dream, but as experienced it was of a different quality. I understand and appreciate that is not enough to convince anyone that it wasn’t just a dream. I understand that is very shaky ground to stand on. I don’t think we have a disagreement on the basic objective facts, just on the felt experience. 2. Here we have a disagreement on the basic facts. I was not unconscious. I know what unconscious is, this wasn’t it. It was not that I rememberd these events after “coming to”, it is that I was conscous and experienced them as they were happening. I can’t prove it to you, it is a data point of one, but it is my data point. The basic disagreement is how much stock to put into subjective experience. The overwhelming consensus of the rigorous rational mind on this topic is to discount the reported experience as anything other than a mis-alignment between reality and the experience of reality. The argument is that because we have shown in other cases that the brain can be fooled, that every experience that doesn’t seem to obey the laws of physics is just the brain being fooled again. I think that is too easy. Not in the Occam’s Razor sense, but it the let’s roll out our standard answer sense. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/79 "2012-01-26T19:19:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Since this isn’t your personal blog, I _don’t_ have to agree with you. For that same reason, I am under no compulsion to make your life less complicated by leaving. If you don’t wish to have your stories questioned, I think there are two solutions available to you: > > 1. Post them in a blog that you control. > 2. Don’t post them at all. Well then I think we’ve resolved the issue. Thanks for all the fish. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/80 "2012-01-26T19:26:51Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Well then I think we’ve resolved the issue. Thanks for all the fish. Not so obscure reference(and not so subtle snub) acknowledged. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=5)