# I Heard My Father's 'Ghost' Yesterday. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586 "2012-01-25T07:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/81 "2012-01-26T19:34:32Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Yes it was a dream, but as experienced it was of a different quality. Not all dreams feel the same. If you’ve had more than one dream, I’m pretty sure you know that. > [@](#): > > I understand and appreciate that is not enough to convince anyone that it wasn’t just a dream. Particularly since it was a dream. > [@](#): > > I don’t think we have a disagreement on the basic objective facts, just on the felt experience. No, we have no disagreement about how you felt. We disagree about what that means. You’re saying it didn’t feel like just a dream, and that that statement has some kind of value as evidence of what the dream really was. I’m saying it doesn’t. Some dreams feel more real than others, and dreams about more emotional subjects have more impact. > [@](#): > > I was not unconscious. Again, yes, you were. The fact that you saw or felt something after losing consciousness for unknown reasons and perhaps being deprived of oxygen doesn’t mean you were really cosncious. > [@](#): > > It was not that I rememberd these events after “coming to”, it is that I was conscous and experienced them as they were happening. I understand that. It makes no difference to what I’m saying. > [@](#): > > The argument is that because we have shown in other cases that the brain can be fooled, that every experience that doesn’t seem to obey the laws of physics is just the brain being fooled again. Particularly when we’ve shown that that’s exactly what is happening in situations just like these. > [@](#): > > I think that is too easy. Not in the Occam’s Razor sense, but it the let’s roll out our standard answer sense. In other words, that’s good enough explanation of other people’s dreams and hallucinations, but not yours. Unfortunately I think a lot of people feel that way - and it doesn’t mean they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/82 "2012-01-26T19:42:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not so obscure reference(and not so subtle snub) acknowledged. Fine, we’ve both snubbed each other, that seems like a fair enough outcome. I still don’t have anything else to add to what I’ve already replied. If it isn’t sufficient for you then you’ll have to wait for my own thinking to progress. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/83 "2012-01-26T20:06:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, we have no disagreement about how you felt. We disagree about what that means. You’re saying it didn’t feel like just a dream, and that that statement has some kind of value as evidence of what the dream really was. I’m saying it doesn’t. Some dreams feel more real than others, and dreams about more emotional subjects have more impact. Yes we do, because the experience (how I felt) is the meaning. > [@](#): > > Again, yes, you were. The fact that you saw or felt something after losing consciousness for unknown reasons and perhaps being deprived of oxygen doesn’t mean you were really cosncious. Again, I was conscious. You can’t seriously be arguing with me about whether I was conscious or not. I know what losing consciousness feels like, this was not that > [@](#): > > Particularly when we’ve shown that that’s exactly what is happening in situations just like these. This was not a “situation like these”. If you start out by saying this experience is a “situation like these” then apply the collective conclusion about what “situation like these” really are, then you aren’t responding to the actual event, but your supposition that it is a “situation like these”. > [@](#): > > In other words, that’s good enough explanation of other people’s dreams and hallucinations, but not yours. Unfortunately I think a lot of people feel that way - and it doesn’t mean they’re right. Only if you shunt my data point off into the “situation like these” pile, when it really belongs in the “not a situation like these” pile. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/84 "2012-01-26T20:13:02Z")
The doctor(and other professionally trained personnel) say you were unconscious, and you say you weren’t. Barring further(if any) evidence, I’m going with the professional medical personnel that observed you when you were on the floor and non-responsive to outside stimuli. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/85 "2012-01-26T20:14:51Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Yes we do, because the experience (how I felt) is the meaning. This doesn’t mean anything. And I don’t mean “your dream doesn’t mean anything,” I mean “this statement about the dream doesn’t mean anything.” I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. > [@](#): > > You can’t seriously be arguing with me about whether I was conscious or not. I know what losing consciousness feels like, this was not that You don’t know why you lost consciousness, so I don’t think you’re in a position to say what you would have felt. Have you stopped breathing other times you lost consciousness? > [@](#): > > This was not a “situation like these”. Your experiences aren’t comparable to other dreams? To other times people stopped breathing? Why not? Like I said, you seem to think it’s different just because it happened to you and not someone else. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/86 "2012-01-26T20:15:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The doctor(and other professionally trained personnel) say you were unconscious, and you say you weren’t. Barring further(if any) evidence, I’m going with the professional medical personnel that observed you when you were on the floor and non-responsive to outside stimuli. And that’s because you are the subject matter expert on my experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/87 "2012-01-26T20:18:11Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > And that’s because you are the subject matter expert on my experiences. Based on how you describe them, apparently so. Perhaps if you were better able to separate your imaginings from your experiences, it might not be so. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/88 "2012-01-26T20:27:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Based on how you describe them, apparently so. Perhaps if you were better able to separate your imaginings from your experiences, it might not be so. I think my initial response was unnecesarily snide, you deserves a better answer, so apologies for that. Neither the doctor nor you have the priveledged information I have about my internal brain state. The doctor can make an educated guess about my state, but that’s all he can do. Suppose I was a blind/deaf/paralyzed/mute - am I unconscious? If you didn’t know I was one of those, then you might make an educated guess that I was unconscious. Me on the hand, I have priveledged information to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/89 "2012-01-26T20:33:21Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I think my initial response was unnecesarily snide, you deserves a better answer, so apologies for that. > > Neither the doctor nor you have the priveledged information I have about my internal brain state. The doctor can make an educated guess about my state, but that’s all he can do. Suppose I was a blind/deaf/paralyzed/mute - am I unconscious? If you didn’t know I was one of those, then you might make an educated guess that I was unconscious. Me on the hand, I have priveledged information to the contrary. Could we get a doctor in here to comment on the “educated guess” portion of his argument? I’m pretty sure a doctor does more than guess about consciousness, or whether a trained medical professional can tell the difference between a “blind/deaf/paralyzed/mute” and someone who is unconscious, but a word from someone with direct knowledge would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/90 "2012-01-26T20:43:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This doesn’t mean anything. And I don’t mean “your dream doesn’t mean anything,” I mean “this statement about the dream doesn’t mean anything.” I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. I mean in this case, how the dream made me feel, is what gave it the meaning of not being just a dream. So, feeling = meaning. If the dream had felt just like a dream, I would not be asserting that the dream did not feel just like a dream. > [@](#): > > You don’t know why you lost consciousness, so I don’t think you’re in a position to say what you would have felt. Have you stopped breathing other times you lost consciousness? You insist on knocking me unconscious and I continue to resist you. This won’t end well. I am in a position to say how I felt because I was in the position to feel what I felt and experience what I experienced. I was fully there, much like I’m fully here now. > [@](#): > > Your experiences aren’t comparable to other dreams? To other times people stopped breathing? Why not? Like I said, you seem to think it’s different just because it happened to you and not someone else. No. I seem to think it’s different only in comparison to other related experiences I have had, not related experiences others have had. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/91 "2012-01-26T20:44:22Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Neither the doctor nor you have the priveledged information I have about my internal brain state. But you don’t have privileged ability to evaluate what happens to your brain or why it’s happening. In fact you have less ability to evaluate that than, say, a doctor. > [@mishagoe](#): > > I mean in this case, how the dream made me feel, is what gave it the meaning of not being just a dream. I understand that, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a dream. > [@](#): > > I am in a position to say how I felt because I was in the position to feel what I felt and experience what I experienced. That doesn’t mean you’re able to interpret it correctly. > [@](#): > > No. I seem to think it’s different only in comparison to other related experiences I have had, not related experiences others have had. Other people have experiences similar to yours, and there is a non-supernatural explanation for them. Wouldn’t that indicate that your experiences were also probably non-supernatural? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/92 "2012-01-26T20:47:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could we get a doctor in here to comment on the “educated guess” portion of his argument? I’m pretty sure a doctor does more than guess about consciousness, or whether a trained medical professional can tell the difference between a “blind/deaf/paralyzed/mute” and someone who is unconscious, but a word from someone with direct knowledge would be helpful. By all means. But, you realize he didn’t have time to run a battery of tests on me to determine my exact brain state. I assume he looked at me, eyes closed, stiff as a board, not breathing. I actually don’t know if he thought much about whether I was conscious or not, I imagine he was rather busy doing stuff to me so I’d start breatihng again. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/93 "2012-01-26T20:53:25Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I actually don’t know if he thought much about whether I was conscious or not, I imagine he was rather busy doing stuff to me so I’d start breatihng again. I’m still wondering why you didn’t do more to find out why you suddenly passed out and stopped breathing. I’d be thinking more about that than my experience while I was “out to lunch.” ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/94 "2012-01-26T21:08:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But you don’t have privileged ability to evaluate what happens to your brain or why it’s happening. In fact you have less ability to evaluate that than, say, a doctor. So tell me this are you conscious right now? Are you in a position to evaluate it accurately? Because I believe that you are just a very cleverly constructed computer, but essentially unconscious. I’ve come to that conclusion based on our interaction up to this point. I can evaluate that better than you because I’m an expert in these things. > [@](#): > > I understand that, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a dream. I have nothing else important to add, maybe it was just a dream, then again maybe not. I’m keeping it open for now. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean you’re able to interpret it correctly. Sorry, you lost me here. You mean decide if I was conscious? Or you mean, did what I describe happen actually happen the way I experienced it? > [@](#): > > Other people have experiences similar to yours, and there is a non-supernatural explanation for them. Wouldn’t that indicate that your experiences were also probably non-supernatural? Supernatural by definition does not exist. By definition if it exists it must be natural. My experience was perfetly natural, though I can’t explain it. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/95 "2012-01-26T21:12:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m still wondering why you didn’t do more to find out why you suddenly passed out and stopped breathing. I’d be thinking more about that than my experience while I was “out to lunch.” Well maybe but then again this happened 8 years ago. I’m fine, no worries. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/96 "2012-01-26T21:12:55Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Supernatural by definition does not exist. By definition if it exists it must be natural. My experience was perfetly natural, though I can’t explain it. No-that is _not_ the definition of “supernatural”. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/97 "2012-01-26T21:16:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-that is _not_ the definition of “supernatural”. You win, it is not and it was not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/98 "2012-01-26T21:22:59Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > You win, it is not and it was not. This isn’t a cheap game where you get to make up the rules as you go along. The word “supernatural” has an established definition, and most dictionaries will define it as such: “(of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.”, or words to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/99 "2012-01-26T21:24:42Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > So tell me this are you conscious right now? As best I can tell. The difference between your made-up claim of expertise and what I’ve said is that there’s evidence of what happens to people when they have experiences like the ones you’ve claimed, and those claims don’t involve anything supernatural or spooky happening. What you’re doing, essentially, is saying that our body of observations and data on the world might turn out to be wrong at any time and for no explained reason - just because other people dream about talking to dead people and it’s just a dream or have odd experiences that can be explained by loss of oxygen doesn’t mean every experience of that type can be explained by those things. And maybe you’re right, but until it actually happens there’s no reason to take that kind of claim seriously. Your experiences are explicable without a supernatural component. We don’t know with an absolute certainty that the laws of gravity will continue to apply after 5 p.m. either, but until you give me a reason to think they might turn off, I’m not going to seriously consider that that’s going to happen. > [@](#): > > maybe it was just a dream, then again maybe not. I’m keeping it open for now. No, you aren’t. Please don’t pretend to be undecided after you’ve spent this much time rejecting the possibility that maybe you just had a dream. > [@](#): > > You mean decide if I was conscious? Or you mean, did what I describe happen actually happen the way I experienced it? The second one. > [@](#): > > My experience was perfetly natural, though I can’t explain it. Yes, you can: you fell asleep and had a dream in the first instance, and in the second, you lost consciousness, stopped breathing, and had a hallucination. You just don’t care for that explanation because it doesn’t satisfy your feelings about the events. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/100 "2012-01-26T21:37:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This isn’t a cheap game where you get to make up the rules as you go along. The word “supernatural” has an established definition, and most dictionaries will define it as such: “(of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.”, or words to that effect. I’m sorry, have you converted? Are you the defender of the supernatual now? Well, bless you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=6)