# I Heard My Father's 'Ghost' Yesterday. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586 "2012-01-25T07:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/101 "2012-01-26T21:44:45Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I’m sorry, have you converted? Are you the defender of the supernatual now? Well, bless you. What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/102 "2012-01-26T22:06:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As best I can tell. The difference between your made-up claim of expertise and what I’ve said is that there’s evidence of what happens to people when they have experiences like the ones you’ve claimed, and those claims don’t involve anything supernatural or spooky happening. What you’re doing, essentially, is saying that our body of observations and data on the world might turn out to be wrong at any time and for no explained reason - just because other people dream about talking to dead people and it’s just a dream or have odd experiences that can be explained by loss of oxygen doesn’t mean every experience of that type can be explained by those things. And maybe you’re right, but until it actually happens there’s no reason to take that kind of claim seriously. Your experiences are explicable without a supernatural component. We don’t know with an absolute certainty that the laws of gravity will continue to apply after 5 p.m. either, but until you give me a reason to think they might turn off, I’m not going to seriously consider that that’s going to happen. If we are talking about my second experience, then please quote me where I’ve said what happened was spooky or supernatural. I described what happened to me. What we have been doing is going and back forth about whether or not I was conscious. You insist you know me better than I do and can determine whether I was conscious on a certain day 8 years ago. On that basis, I claim the same priveledge over you, which makes as much sense in both cases. None at all. > [@](#): > > No, you aren’t. Please don’t pretend to be undecided after you’ve spent this much time rejecting the possibility that maybe you just had a dream. Ok, you are the boss of me, what may I do next? > [@](#): > > The second one. No I relayed exactly what happened to me. Granted it was weird and unusal. > [@](#): > > Yes, you can: you fell asleep and had a dream in the first instance, and in the second, you lost consciousness, stopped breathing, and had a hallucination. You just don’t care for that explanation because it doesn’t satisfy your feelings about the events. We’re just going in circles now. You insist I was unconscious, and that settles the issue for you. What exactly do you expect me to do with that? Let’s say I suddenly agree with you: yes I was unconscious - your conclusion stands. Let’s say I continue to disagree with you: I was conscious - you assert the opposite and your conclusion still stands. It’s a win win for you both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/103 "2012-01-26T22:18:00Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > No I relayed exactly what happened to me. No- you relayed your interpretation of what happened. Your conclusions are what’s in dispute: the dream didn’t feel like a dream and might have been caused by your brother’s soul reaching out to you, and you were definitely conscious after you stopped breathing and your consciousness was near a body of water and was getting directions from someone. That didn’t “happen to you.” You had the impression of those things happening, but factually, you can’t say they did happen. (Secret revelation: they didn’t happen. Your brain made them up.) ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/104 "2012-01-27T03:21:58Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > [Of course if they tell you that it’s important to bury a hatchet in your next door neighbor please ignore that part.] What?? Make the ghost even angrier?? I don’t think so!! hh ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/105 "2012-01-27T04:18:25Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > What?? Make the ghost even angrier?? I don’t think so!! I do believe that burying the hatchet in your next door neighbor would create an even _angrier_ ghost, though. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/106 "2012-01-27T04:34:34Z")
**mishagoe** Exactly how does one determine which dreams have ‘real’ meaning vs those that are just ordinary dreams? One nite I’m fighting zombies - the terror is real - the next I’m having some fantastic … ahem… encounters… ahem – and both times I would swear the reality of what happend _while it was happening_ - and at times they are so real that the next day I’m sometimes left with guilt feelings over it (or terror that the dog I buried in the back yard is actually still alive). (I even had physical evidence when I awoke from the ‘encounter’ that proved I was there!) So, riddle me that - how do you decide between ‘dreams’ and ‘spirits visiting me while I am asleep with important messages’ - cause, well, I really want to know. until you can give me a good way to discern - they all go in the ‘dream’ bucket. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/107 "2012-01-27T04:47:08Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > In Judaism we say that the deceased still “live on in the hearts of those who cherish their memory.” We do? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/108 "2012-01-27T15:20:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No- you relayed your interpretation of what happened. Your conclusions are what’s in dispute: the dream didn’t feel like a dream and might have been caused by your brother’s soul reaching out to you, and you were definitely conscious after you stopped breathing and your consciousness was near a body of water and was getting directions from someone. That didn’t “happen to you.” You had the impression of those things happening, but factually, you can’t say they did happen. (Secret revelation: they didn’t happen. Your brain made them up.) You keep on missing the point of personal experiences and how their meaning is derived. They are personal and subjective and that is precisely the source from which their meaning is derived. I guess the next time you have an unusual dream or some other unusual conscious state experience, no doubt you’ll think it was just bit of undigested potato lodged in your stomach. Trust me on this, there is a big world out there just waiting for you to partake in it, so don’t be afraid to take the first step to explore the world inside your head. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/109 "2012-01-27T15:25:02Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Trust me on this, there is a big world out there just waiting for you to partake in it, so don’t be afraid to take the first step to explore the world inside your head. Trust _me_, the world inside your head does not necessarily correspond 1:1 with the world _outside_ your head. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/110 "2012-01-27T15:28:29Z")
> [@simster](#): > > **mishagoe** Exactly how does one determine which dreams have ‘real’ meaning vs those that are just ordinary dreams? Well, this will shock you, you determine that by exploring the significance of the dream to you. It is afterall your dream, not mine. For you to ask anyone but yourself for the meaning is misguided. > [@](#): > > One nite I’m fighting zombies - the terror is real - the next I’m having some fantastic .. ahem… encounters… ahem – and both times I would swear the reality of what happend _while it was happening_ - and at times they are so real that the next day I’m sometimes left with guilt feelings over it (or terror that the dog I buried in the back yard is actually still alive). > > (I even had physical evidence when I awoke from the ‘encounter’ that proved I was there!) > > So, riddle me that - how do you decide between ‘dreams’ and ‘spirits visiting me while I am asleep with important messages’ - cause, well, I really want to know. > > until you can give me a good way to discern - they all go in the ‘dream’ bucket. If you really want to know then go reflect on it, read some books, explore why you think what you think. If you don’t want to do that work then don’t do it and go on with whatever meaning or non-meaning you assign to your dreams. I’m not here to teach you any of this. Good luck and enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/111 "2012-01-27T15:32:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Trust _me_, the world inside your head does not necessarily correspond 1:1 with the world _outside_ your head. Nice try since you almost had that right You should have said: the world outside your head does not correspond 1:1 with the word inside your head. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/112 "2012-01-27T15:36:05Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Well, this will shock you, you determine that by exploring the significance of the dream to you. It is afterall your dream, not mine. For you to ask anyone but yourself for the meaning is misguided. > > If you really want to know then go reflect on it, read some books, explore why you think what you think. If you don’t want to do that work then don’t do it and go on with whatever meaning or non-meaning you assign to your dreams. I’m not here to teach you any of this. Good luck and enjoy. Vague pointing off in the direction of unnamed books, vague words o’ wisdom and a vague condescending guru smile. You’re right, you certainly aren’t here to teach us anything…because we’ve seen this all before. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/113 "2012-01-27T15:39:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Vague pointing off in the direction of unnamed books, vague words o’ wisdom and a vague condescending guru smile. You’re right, you certainly aren’t here to teach us anything…because we’ve seen this all before. Yes, I get that you’ve seen this all before many times and it is like water off a ducks back to you. Congrats. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/114 "2012-01-27T15:40:19Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Well, this will shock you, you determine that by exploring the significance of the dream to you. It is afterall your dream, not mine. For you to ask anyone but yourself for the meaning is misguided. > > If you really want to know then go reflect on it, read some books, explore why you think what you think. If you don’t want to do that work then don’t do it and go on with whatever meaning or non-meaning you assign to your dreams. I’m not here to teach you any of this. Good luck and enjoy. I didn’t ask if my dreams had “meaning” to me (or to anyone). I asked how to discern the difference between a ‘normal dream’ and a ‘visit from a dead spirit’ or me moving on the astral plane to some enchanted place. cause, if there is a difference, then that difference must be discernible beyond mere ‘feeling’ its different. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/115 "2012-01-27T16:02:16Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I didn’t ask if my dreams had “meaning” to me (or to anyone). > > I asked how to discern the difference between a ‘normal dream’ and a ‘visit from a dead spirit’ or me moving on the astral plane to some enchanted place. > > cause, if there is a difference, then that difference must be discernible beyond mere ‘feeling’ its different. Really? How do you propose that difference is manifested inside you if you think the experience or the feeling you derive from the dream has no meaning? I would also be interested in anything you can add to this. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/116 "2012-01-27T16:31:05Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > \ How do you propose that difference is manifested inside you if you think the experience or the feeling you derive from the dream has no meaning? I hope this isn’t breaking a rule, but let me try to parse this: [What is the] difference … inside you if … the experience [of the] the dream has no meaning? Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/117 "2012-01-27T16:33:29Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Really? How do you propose that difference is manifested inside you if you think the experience or the feeling you derive from the dream has no meaning? I would also be interested in anything you can add to this. You seem to be mis understanding the question - I am asking YOU how YOU (or anyone) could discern the difference - clearly you cant describe any meaningful way of telling the difference between a ‘dream’ and a ‘dead spirit visiting me while in a sleeplike state’ beyond "how it makes me feel’ - which is meaningless as evidence. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/118 "2012-01-27T16:54:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You seem to be mis understanding the question - I am asking YOU how YOU (or anyone) could discern the difference - clearly you cant describe any meaningful way of telling the difference between a ‘dream’ and a ‘dead spirit visiting me while in a sleeplike state’ beyond "how it makes me feel’ - which is meaningless as evidence. YOU and YOU alone are the only valid source for the meaning. It is a subjective experience. Not an object. You want a primer on subjective? or Experience? You either trust your experience or you don’t. You don’t believe in encounters with souls, or spirits, or the dear departed. But I can’t sort that out for you. For you to be asking me for proof of these things is a bit disingenuous, wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/119 "2012-01-27T16:58:56Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > YOU and YOU alone are the only valid source for the meaning. It is a subjective experience. Not an object. You want a primer on subjective? or Experience? You either trust your experience or you don’t. You don’t believe in encounters with souls, or spirits, or the dear departed. But I can’t sort that out for you. For you to be asking me for proof of these things is a bit disingenuous, wouldn’t you agree? Define “Reality” in your own words, please. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/120 "2012-01-27T16:59:31Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I hope this isn’t breaking a rule, but let me try to parse this: > > [What is the] difference … inside you if … the experience [of the] the dream has no meaning? > > Is that right? Better parsed this way: What is inside of you is is the meaning of the experience. If the experience has no difference in meaning for you then that is what is inside of you. Not my fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=7)