# I Heard My Father's 'Ghost' Yesterday. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586 "2012-01-25T07:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/121 "2012-01-27T17:01:40Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Better parsed this way: > > What is inside of you is is the meaning of the experience. If the experience has no difference in meaning for you then that is what is inside of you. Not my fault. Can anyone here translate Guru–\>English, please? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/122 "2012-01-27T17:34:51Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > YOU and YOU alone are the only valid source for the meaning. It is a subjective experience. Not an object. You want a primer on subjective? or Experience? You either trust your experience or you don’t. You don’t believe in encounters with souls, or spirits, or the dear departed. But I can’t sort that out for you. For you to be asking me for proof of these things is a bit disingenuous, wouldn’t you agree? Again - I DID NOT ASK FOR MEANING. I asked for a discernible difference between “DREAM” and “VISIT BY SPIRIT OF DEAD THING” can you or can you not provide a way to discern the difference between the two? I assume you still have dreams where you visit ‘places’ that you do not qualify as being some out of body experience - how do you tell the difference? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/123 "2012-01-27T17:35:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Define “Reality” in your own words, please. No problem my friend. Reality: for you and me it is our experience of being in the world (Universe). ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/124 "2012-01-27T17:37:06Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Again - I DID NOT ASK FOR MEANING. > > I asked for a discernible difference between > > “DREAM” > > and > > “VISIT BY SPIRIT OF DEAD THING” > > can you or can you not provide a way to discern the difference between the two? > > I assume you still have dreams where you visit ‘places’ that you do not qualify as being some out of body experience - how do you tell the difference? I did, but seems like you’re looking for something I can’t provide. Try a different approach. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/125 "2012-01-27T20:47:12Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I did, but seems like **you’re looking for something I can’t provide**. Try a different approach. bolding mine - thanks for finally admitting it. You have no evidence or quantifiable way of discerning what is “dream” vs “spirit of dead thing visiting me”. Based on your logic, if my dream(s) of being on a distant planet with blue critters flying on dragonlike creatures and dancing naked around trees “means something” then it must be ‘real’. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/126 "2012-01-27T21:15:57Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > No problem my friend. Reality: for you and me it is our experience of being in the world (Universe). Sounds more like perception, to me. A schizophrenic in a mental institution may believe he’s being attacked by a fire-breathing dragon while he’s sitting in the day room, but that doesn’t mean he’s being attacked by a dragon in reality. You’re trying to say there are no objective facts, only subjective experience. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/127 "2012-01-27T22:05:57Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Sounds more like perception, to me. A schizophrenic in a mental institution may believe he’s being attacked by a fire-breathing dragon while he’s sitting in the day room, but that doesn’t mean he’s being attacked by a dragon in reality. You’re trying to say there are no objective facts, only subjective experience. Without perception then, exactly what are you left with oh perceptive one? For us there is only experience, not sure how you make it through the world without experiencing it, but let me know how you do it. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/128 "2012-01-27T22:11:44Z")
> [@simster](#): > > bolding mine - thanks for finally admitting it. > > You have no evidence or quantifiable way of discerning what is “dream” vs “spirit of dead thing visiting me”. > > Based on your logic, if my dream(s) of being on a distant planet with blue critters flying on dragonlike creatures and dancing naked around trees “means something” then it must be ‘real’. Exactly what kind of quantifiable evidence do you imagine there might be outside of the experiences themselves, that anyone in their right mind would offer up to you? I’m guessing you don’t do much science of any sort to speak of. Right? You’re asking for something you already know is unavailable, and you do this because…? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/129 "2012-01-27T22:22:10Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Exactly what kind of quantifiable evidence do you imagine there might be outside of the experiences themselves, that anyone in their right mind would offer up to you? I’m guessing you don’t do much science of any sort to speak of. Right? You’re asking for something you already know is unavailable, and you do this because…? Because you’re the one claiming to have proof or evidence there of - thru your own personal experiences - if this were true, you could quantify it in some manner beyond ‘feeling’ that they are different - which is, to some degree, a valid quantifier, but not if you are trying to prove to others that these things are ‘different’ and ‘real’ and have ‘substance’. You believe you have been visited by ghosts - you believe you have ‘astral projected’ yourself when you were ‘not unconscious’ - I’m asking how _ **you** _ ‘know’ these weren’t just dreams - how you tell these experiences apart - You don’t know - and you won’t admit it. Let me put it another way - early in the thread you said these things ‘must be valid’ because of other peoples reports - I’m asking you to quantify it beyond “feeling that its different” - get sci-ency about it and prove that this stuff is more than just a dream. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/130 "2012-01-27T22:40:41Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Because you’re the one claiming to have proof or evidence there of - thru your own personal experiences - if this were true, you could quantify it in some manner beyond ‘feeling’ that they are different - which is, to some degree, a valid quantifier, but not if you are trying to prove to others that these things are ‘different’ and ‘real’ and have ‘substance’. > > You believe you have been visited by ghosts - you believe you have ‘astral projected’ yourself when you were ‘not unconscious’ - I’m asking how _ **you** _ ‘know’ these weren’t just dreams - how you tell these experiences apart - > > You don’t know - and you won’t admit it. > > Let me put it another way - early in the thread you said these things ‘must be valid’ because of other peoples reports - I’m asking you to quantify it beyond “feeling that its different” - get sci-ency about it and prove that this stuff is more than just a dream. I shared a couple of experiences that were related to the OP. What I didn’t do is immediately shoot them dead on arrival like most everyone else on this thread. Yes, I do believe they are what I experienced them to be. You’re asking me to pass some bullshit meter test to prove to you the experience are what I say they meant to me. And if I don’t, they can’t possibly mean to me what I say they mean. Please don’t believe they are what I say they are. Trust me on this, you can believe what you want. I have never claimed to have objective evidence. You just realized that did you? I have a good remedy for that tendency, read what I write, not what you think I’m writing. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/131 "2012-01-27T22:42:28Z")
Didn’t we go over this already in that other thread? There’s ample, ample, ample evidence to suggest that such “experiences” are just hallucinations. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/132 "2012-01-27T22:44:47Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I shared a couple of experiences that were related to the OP. What I didn’t do is immediately shoot them dead on arrival like most everyone else on this thread. Yes, I do believe they are what I experienced them to be. You’re asking me to pass some bullshit meter test to prove to you the experience are what I say they meant to me. And if I don’t, they can’t possibly mean to me what I say they mean. Please don’t believe they are what I say they are. Trust me on this, you can believe what you want. I have never claimed to have objective evidence. You just realized that did you? I have a good remedy for that tendency, read what I write, not what you think I’m writing. You want to tell unsubstantiated stories in a debate thread, and you don’t want to debate them. Understood…and rejected. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/133 "2012-01-27T22:51:36Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Better parsed this way: I tried it in an online processor, and got: What you are is the meaning of l’ experience this. If l’ experience n’ to not then of difference in the meaning for you this it is what in you it is. Not my error. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/134 "2012-01-27T22:59:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You want to tell unsubstantiated stories in a debate thread, and you don’t want to debate them. > Understood…and rejected. Aye aye captain. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/135 "2012-01-27T23:04:04Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I tried it in an online processor, and got: > > What you are is the meaning of l’ experience this. If l’ experience n’ to not then of difference in the meaning for you this it is what in you it is. Not my error. No no no, you messed it all up doing that. Try this: What does the experience I have mean to me? Does it matter to me what it means to you? If so, why does it matter to me that you don’t ascribe the same meaning that I do? Well, shit it doesn’t matter to me. Does it matter to you? Well too bad, not my fault. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/136 "2012-01-27T23:26:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You want to tell unsubstantiated stories in a debate thread, and you don’t want to debate them. > Understood…and rejected. In all fairness to you I should rephrase my reply. You are correct this is supposed to be a debate thread. And, if in fact it were a debate thread, we would now be debating. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/137 "2012-01-28T00:33:07Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Without perception then, exactly what are you left with oh perceptive one? For us there is only experience, not sure how you make it through the world without experiencing it, but let me know how you do it. Well, for one thing, I’m left with equipment that can detect things you can’t by perception alone. The kind of equipment that’s used all the time in science. But even just using perception, consensus among other, disinterested parties usually works pretty well. If everyone else agrees there’s no dragon attacking you, no matter what you’re experiencing, that’s a pretty good indicator your perceptions don’t conform to objective reality. Really, this is freshman-bullshit-session-level philosophizing you’re engaging in here. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/138 "2012-01-28T00:48:46Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I shared a couple of experiences that were related to the OP. What I didn’t do is immediately shoot them dead on arrival like most everyone else on this thread. Yes, I do believe they are what I experienced them to be. You’re asking me to pass some bullshit meter test to prove to you the experience are what I say they meant to me. And if I don’t, they can’t possibly mean to me what I say they mean. Please don’t believe they are what I say they are. Trust me on this, you can believe what you want. I have never claimed to have objective evidence. You just realized that did you? I have a good remedy for that tendency, read what I write, not what you think I’m writing. I Asked for how you determined they were more than just a ‘dream’ or ‘hallucination’. You keep claiming they were - I asked for the “how”. You get defensive because you _know_ that you cannot provide anything more than “feeling” on the matter - if you simply owned up to that, it would be over. I never said what they did (or did not) ‘mean’ to you or “shot that down”. You are confusing two very different things - but it serves your purpose, so enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/139 "2012-01-28T04:29:43Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Auditory hallucinations are commonly associated with being on the [verge of sleep](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia#Sounds) I will get these from time to time, and a disturbingly common hallucination is like the OP said; someone saying my name and nothing else. Once when I had stayed up working an extra shift at fast food, a very long time ago, I heard the entirety of _Vital Signs_ by Rush in my car…except I had no radio. Music in stereo. Creeped me out, but then I was so far drowsy I fell asleep twice on the way home that night so the explanation is obvious.\* - Progressive rock spirits had infested my car…maybe the _Spirit of Radio?_ ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586/140 "2012-01-28T05:00:08Z")
These debates are useless. “I swear I saw/heard it!” “_Evidence for hallucinations!_” “I don’t care, you weren’t there, I know what I experienced!” Agree to disagree, move on. What debate could possibly be had here? It’s just another “No it isn’t”/“Yes it is” debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-heard-my-fathers-ghost-yesterday/610586.md?page=8)