I need to clarify as well that I in no way condone this behaviour. Personally, in my eyes, it is murder. But, as far as I can tell, the laws on the books say otherwise.
Sorry, but the freedom to worship as you like doesn’t mean that you have the freedom to compromise another human’s basic right to life.
This is, without a doubt, murder.
As I understand it, the freedom of religion does not extend to medical decisions made for a minor. Parents just aren’t entitled to neglect their children, no matter what the voices in their heads say. Often in these circumstances the state appoints a legal guardian to make sure that the child receives proper medical treatment. It’s just horribly inefficient, since it only protects the children known to be sick.
Freedom of religion does not even extend to what you can do to yourselves. Here in the south we have an obscure sect of the pentacostals who handle snakes…drink poison and other fun things. It is not legal in all southern states.
I for one believe that letting someone die with seeking all help available is murder.
I think it is murder. If an adult doesn’t want to get medical help, fine, but the children have no say in the matter. Do you think they’re ready to die? By the same argument if you were in a car crash obviously God meant for you to die. Wearing a seatbelt would be interfering with his will, right?
Isn’t it in the bible that “God helps those who help themselves.” How do these people know that modern medecine isn’t part of His plan?
As a new mom, reading something like this tears my heart out. It never used to affect me the way it does now.
Sorry, but those people allowed that baby to die, and it was wrong. Children have additional protections under the law due to their minority and relative inability to make certain decision for themselves. I hope they are prosecuted.
I would go to ANY LENGTH to protect the life of my son. I would probably even kill someone if he was in immediate danger. I could never sit back & hope that somehow he got better, and turned a more life-like shade than blue.
To me, these people are almost at the level of a thing I heard years ago about a woman and her mother, who couldn’t get the woman’s baby to stop crying. They decided it must be possessed, like the girl in “The Exorcist”, so they set it on fire to drive the devil out.
I know, stupidity vs. religious freedom. But either way, a tragic end for people who had no way to speak for themselves.
PS- I am still pro-choice. But once someone is born, it’s a whole other ballgame.
Geez! walk away from your desk for 16 hours, come back to a hornet’s nest!
I ended up spending a lot of time thinking about this one last night. Decided that it has definitely turned into a GD question.
That’s not how it was meant! Honest! 
Cults are considered illegal because they manipulate and hurt people (Of course, I think that organised religion in general does that too, but that’s a whole 'nother thread, ain’t it?). For some reason, they are not protected under the constitution.
Why do we allow those who insist that Jesus is the only doctor they’ll trust to cower under the umbrella of Freedom of Religion in this way?
Is it the whole Jesus thing? “He’s a god we know, so it’s OK”
Anyway, my big question I guess, is at which point should a constitutional right be superceded by a moral right?
But I suppose that if you start talking about moral right and wrong, you end up getting swept into a discussion on the nature of ethics.
But Dammit, murdering a child is wrong! Doesn’t matter WHAT your ethical standards are, and it doesn’t have to be in the Constitution for us to know it!
Cults are illegal??? I don’t think so.
Hey, I think these people are assholes, but they are not murderers. They did not intend their action, or lack of it, to cause harm. There are several religions that shun medical practices in favor ‘faith healing’. The prayers that they feverishly offered up to God were supposed to bring about a divine cure.
Some of these odd-ball religions (I don’t think it’s right to brand them as cults) believe that submitting to medical practices would put their souls at risk, as some sort of insult to the Almighty.
To me, it’s nonsense. But maybe they are true believers.
I dont believe they are murderers, for they did not intend to kill the child, but they should still be held responsible for involuntary manslaughter. They neglected a sick child.
I could not let my child die without trying everything within my power to do. This includes medical treatment and prayer. I take issue with the attitude that medical treatment is required. I watched my grandfather rot in a bed in a coma for 5 weeks. He wasn’t there, he had not been since coming out of heart surgery. The hospital would not let him die because my grandmother did not have the proper paper work.
The real question is who has the right to deny medical treatment. Is only people of legal age 21 and up? Is it only for ourselves?
I agree with the opinions expressed above, this is off to Great Debates.
Blessedwolf, you may want to re-post a summary of the article in your own words since I had to delete the majority of it.
Hi. I’m one of those sick cultists. Been one since I was born. By choice, ever since I could think through the logic of my religion.
They were not neglecting their child. There is a profound difference between abuse and prayer. Abuse and neglect are symptoms of apathy or direct hate of a child and I doubt those parents felt either toward that child. I know my parents don’t hate me. They love me, just as all of you who are parents love your children and do everything in your power to take care of them. There ideas of what power is are different. Not neglectful, just different.
It is a tough decision for parents from these religions, every time. At least in my religion. Do you give in to a violent, disturbing method of medicine that is accepted, or do you heal as you have found is right, risking censure? It is a tough decision as a practitioner of a healing religion. How do you explain to your friends that you don’t think drugs fix problems? They can accept it mentally when you are smiling and happy, it makes you odd, but they live. When you are sick and refusing medication the people who love you are hurt.
This last year in college I started taking drugs just to make my friends feel better. Talk about peer pressure. A pill for every ill is a new thing to me and horrifies me every time. My method of healing is not one of drugs and helplessness. I don’t give myself up to a chemical reaction, I combat the idea of imperfection. Another debate for another time…
The point I am trying to make is that those parents were not neglectful, they were doing what they knew to be correct. You may know something entirely different is right. You don’t and shouldn’t have the right to dictate that.
The fire I’m going to draw for this is already scaring me…
Medea’s Child:
I respect your point of view, and I agree that the parents were doing what they considered best for their child. It is also far from clear that they were ignoring obvious danger signs - this sort of thing can happen to any parents who decided to wait a while before calling the doctor.
Thing is, this child needed surgery, not drugs. How does your personal philosophy consider surgery? I presume you would remove a splinter, set a broken bone, maybe stitch or bandage a cut?
Religion claims another life…. So, what is new? The dead bodies keep piling up and ignorance bread new martyrs.
Christians don’t feel singled out, religious slaughter has been going on long before your religion saw the light of day.
Sometimes spell checkers don’t help.
bread should read breed
**
Is there a profound difference between neglect and neglect? Neglect is a form of abuse. And whether you got into a little prayer circle and prayed for the best or sat in the next room high on crack while your child died of a treatable condition, you have neglected your child, and this neglect allowed your child to die.
**
According to your logic, your parents would have shown how much they loved you after you were hit by a car by praying for you instead of applying a torniquet.
If that is love, I’m glad my parents version of it was different. And if this is what God wants, I am glad to have nothing to do with this God of yours.
But personal opinion aside, it is illegal to neglect your children, period. I could bring a million cites up if you wish to show this. The right to swing your fist ends at the tip of your childs nose.
**
Then I suggest you not breed.
**
I would like English here what is “violent” and what is “roght,” please.
**
Newsflash: There is no such thing as a “healing religion,” in terms of physical health.
**
I had a headache. I tool an Advil. It went away quicker than if I had not taken it.
That drug fixed my problem.
**
And this has to do with the endangerment of a child… How?
**
As far as I am concerned, you can not treat yourself if you wish. You’re an adult. You want to kill yourself, potentially? You want to risk dying? Fine!
Just don’t do this to a kid who doesn’t know any better, thank you.
**
What they “know is correct” is not. Ignorance is not an excuse. If a child is sick, it needs a doctor. Period. And if a sick child dies of something a doctor could have prevented but the child was willingly not brought to the doctor, this is neglect causing the death of the child. Period.
**
We do have the right to tell people they need to be responsible for their children. Endangering them is not showing responsibility, and neglecting them is illegal.
Maybe because you’re wrong?
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
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4904 cigarettes not smoked, saving $613.03.
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Unfortunately, in many states (including Ohio and Virginia), the law specifically states that not seeking medical attention for a child is not neglect or abuse, as long as the parents are attempting to heal the child through prayer “in accordance with the tenets of a recognized religious body. (Ohio Revised Code 2919.22, Virginia Code 18.2-371.1)”
It goes without saying that I think such laws are a mistake, for several reasons.
matt, thanks for the respect. Its a refreshing thing. In my religion medicine is not outlawed, it doesn’t “endanger you soul” or any such thing, just most people don’t find it as useful as healing. Personally, I consider surgery as a violent invasion of the body. I got to go through that earlier this year. (“You mean to tell me that cutting someone up is the ‘good’ method? Leave me to my quackery, please!”) The idea of some guy in a white coat straping me down, knocking me out and cutting holes in me is so different than what I accept as healing, as heath. It sounds to me like assault and battery. Healing, as I enjoy it, is a pleasurable experiance. It is the overwelming wholeness, a resurgence of Love and Life, none of this cutting and bleeding bit.
Satan, I am saying that I was never neglected as a child. There is a difference between healing prayer and being high on crack. One is focused care for the child and one is utter lack of care.
It is, and should be, illegal to abuse children, to hate them, to injure them, to be apathetic toward them. It is not(at least where I live), and should not be, illegal to include them in a caring religion. Amount of allowable medical atention is a personal choice in my religion. As a child, my tolerance was actually lower than my parents. The biggest fight I ever had with my mother was when my little sister broke her arm and was taken to the hospital. My father would heal his own arm, but not his daughter’s? I was livid, the hypocrasy I saw in that action horrified me.
Oh, I will breed. It will be lovely. No immunizations! No check ups! No constant lectures about germs! I’m sure you are scred now. Its a relaxing childhood. Innocent, pure, no fear mongering, full of love. I hope that I can be as wonderful of a parent as mine are.
Medicine as violence. Hurried doctors who tripple schedule appointments and don’t care about you, your happiness, or your life. High tech procedures that inject radiation as a way to help diagnoses. Removal of body parts. People feel as though all of this cannot be helped, cannot be avoided. Yet I have avoided it.
I have been actually cared for by my health care. When I can’t solve a problem on my own, mental, physical, emotional, I call someone who has known me my whole life, who will talk with me no matter what time of day it is. Plus I get to turn to God! Healing is a perfect moment, where ugliness is stripped away and only purity, love and wellness are left.
Knowing this, feeling this elegant rightness that enforces Life and health is the “right” I spoke of. The choice is not only availible, it is clear, at least for my family. The fact that it draws active hatred by people who do not see it is about the only downfall. Its like being gay, only less accepted.
“Newsflash: There is no such thing as a “healing religion,” in terms of physical health.”
In my experiance, I beg to differ. I have had physical problems and healed them. If you want a recount, I can give examples. I have found that people simply don’t trust my word because the healing didn’t come on a medical chart. Or came to fast for explination. Physical healing is not some long drawn out process, full of pain and recordable moments, it is just a bit of catch time releasing the world to its proper flow. I cannot prove to you what you refuse to believe. Just as you cannot take away from me what I know.
“What they “know is correct” is not. Ignorance is not an excuse. If a child is sick, it needs a doctor. Period. And if a sick child dies of something a doctor could have prevented but the child was willingly not brought to the doctor, this is neglect causing the death of the child. Period.”
Its not ignorance. My mother was a nurse before she joined my religion. She found something better. I’m in school for Chemical Engineering. Not just backwoods hicks join these cults.
Children do not need doctors. What if the doctor screws up and kills the child? Was the parent still neglectful, or did they simply do what they thought was best and it failed?
Or we could continue to suppose these people were members of my actual religion, which doesn’t believe in death. No death, no dying, no hell.
“Maybe because you’re wrong?”
Not at all. I just don’t like fighting. I like knowing other people’s opinions and expressing mine, but true argument is against my nature. In general I’d rather smile and drop a wild conflict than lose friends. I like the people here and I don’t want to fight with them. On the other hand, I follow my religion, and would like to share the thoughts that were probably going through those parent’s minds. Any way I can gain more tolerance for religious freedom I will. Its not asking much, just that I be allowed to practise my beliefs. Even if I’m ten.
Medea’s Child, I understand and respect your view, but you made you choice of how you live willingly and fully informed. However, and infant has no capability to do this, and the parents must do what’s in the best interests of the child’s health, not in the best interests of their religion.
So, if you had appendicitis (sp?), which can easily kill you if it bursts, would you ‘assault’ your body to remove the appendix, or would you just hope your healing practices work? It’s your choice, you’re old enough to make your own decisions, an infant is not.
A religion who’s practices result in the death of an infant does not sound very caring to me.
They don’t need doctors?? That’s news to me. A doctor screwing up is the doctor’s fault; not the parent’s fault, not the medical profession’s fault.
When I was around 6 years old, I had cut my head open rather severely by running into the corner of a wall. My parents took me to the doctor and I got 27 stitches. If my parents hadn’t taken me to the doctor and had instead prayed for me, I would have bled to death right there on the kitchen floor.
When my friend was 8, he got pneumonia, a very serious case. His parents kept him home because they didn’t know how serious it was. That is, until one day they went to check on him, and his skin was cold and slightly blue, he had a low pulse, and was barely breathing. He was rushed to the emergency room and was in there for a week. He would have died if his parents kept hoping he would get better without taking him to the hospital.
So what was that again about children not needing doctors?
A child in with a life-threatening condition should and must be taken to a doctor to get the best possible care that they can in the hands of a professional, not some religious witch doctor mixing potions and chanting weird songs (note: Extreme sarcasm, take it with a fistful of salt). If a child dies at the hospital, at least the parents did the right thing and tried to help their child. If they just pray and the child dies, that is neglect. It is not providing the full possible care that they can for a child.
Please explain by what moral right you could possible allow your child to carry communicable, deadly diseases and pass them on to other children? If you don’t care if your kids die from polio or measles or mumps, bully for you, but how dare you allow other people’s children to be exposed because of your irresponsibility? Maybe you ought to think about that. Your kids won’t live on an island, and you have no right to get other people’s kids sick.
Last year (almost EXACTLY a year ago, actually), when I broke my leg, I’m glad there was an orthopedic surgeon (Dr. Duret Smith, an expert in the treatment of carpal tunnel syndrome, as it happens) who fixed it for me, rather than someone who said some gibberish over me and left me crippled for life. If you believe in a higher power, you have to believe he endowed members of the medical profession with their skills for a reason.