# I hope the families of every one of these victims sues the federal government. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053 "2011-02-11T19:08:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/21 "2011-02-11T21:11:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Would not the perpetrator need to be a citizen in order to have 2nd amendment rights? A restriction of weapons to citizens only would be an abridgement of the right to bear arms. In some places, the Constitution meant “citizen” and in those places, it explicitly said so. It does not say so in the Second Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/22 "2011-02-11T21:11:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > No. Non-citizen here with Second Amendment rights. I also have First, Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Amendment ones, too. legal Non-citizen - yes illegal - not so much ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/23 "2011-02-11T21:19:21Z")
True. Yet not what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/24 "2011-02-11T21:25:13Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > legal Non-citizen - yes > > illegal - not so much Cite? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/25 "2011-02-11T21:26:30Z")
> [@villa](#): > > True. Yet not what you said. True, however the OP was about an illegal so I thought it a clear point of reference ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/26 "2011-02-11T21:31:35Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’d say it’s high time your Trumpet of Outrage got another note. He’s got another note. It’s the “white people are genetically superior to black people note.” But to be fair to your point, I suppose it can be all categorized as the “I hate brown people” note. So 'gellin, the government orders the man to be deported, the man does not comply, said man later kills some people, and you want the government to be sued even though it did its job, but the man committed crimes. Great idea. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/27 "2011-02-11T21:36:10Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Cite? My cite would be that to purchase a weapon in Virginia I had to prove legal residency here. That would, to me, indicate pretty strongly that Second Amendment rights were not held by illegal aliens. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/28 "2011-02-11T21:37:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It turns out that, once again, an illegal immigrant who was supposed to be deported—ten years ago—decided to not leave. And now he’s killed three people. If the feds had done their job and removed this person from our presence, three people would still be alive today. The same thing happened with one of the Beltway Snipers. It seems right and just to me that the government should be held accountable. Having 1) identified a person who did not belong here and 2) determined that he had to leave, it is incumbent upon them to do their job and make sure the person is removed. > > What say you? Here’s what I say. The shooting occurred in Manassas, Virginia. Manassas is in Prince William County. Prince William County is famous for its [draconian anti-immigration measures](http://www.maldef.org/truthinimmigration/state_and_local_anti-immigrant_ordinances_backfire05092008/index.html), passed in 2007, somewhat along the lines of what Arizona did but worse. Those anti-immigrant measures had many bad effects: on employment, on the housing market, and on local businesses. With all those bad things happening as a result, few bothered noticing that Prince William’s crime rate was among the highest in the region. Anti-immigrant groups had promised that their legislation would solve the county’s crime problem, but they were wrong. The example you choose to give of how lax immigration policy causes crime actually came from a place with the toughest anti-immigration status in the country. Makes you look pretty ridiculous doesn’t it? What say you? (And while we’re at it, what say you to [the fact](http://reason.com/archives/2009/07/06/the-el-paso-miracle)that crime rates are much lower among illegal immigrants than among citizens?) ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/29 "2011-02-11T21:51:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is this going to be another one of those threads where I spend six pages pointing out that there’s no real cause of action against the government in cases like this, only to have you announce that you were “really” talking about “justice?” > > So let me say: perhaps there is some amorphous “justice” in the idea of suing the government. > > But there is no actual legal path to do so under these facts. What about situations like the [Tuskagee syphilis experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment), where government officials performed (presumably) illegal actions? Can someone be sued for that? I note that the wiki article doesn’t mention anything about a law suit so I’m assuming no. I guess what I’m getting at is what situations, if any, are liable for law suits? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/30 "2011-02-11T21:54:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Cite? [The Gun Control Act of 1968](http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf) Specifically prohibits aliens, being in the United States illegally ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/31 "2011-02-11T22:13:46Z")
Does the OP realize that when someone sues the federal government, they are, in fact, suing him? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/32 "2011-02-11T22:17:58Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > legal Non-citizen - yes > > illegal - not so much So, you’re saying that it would be legal for the federal government to force all illegal immigrant to convert to Hinduism? Because I’m pretty sure it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/33 "2011-02-11T22:22:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you’re saying that it would be legal for the federal government to force all illegal immigrant to convert to Hinduism? > > Because I’m pretty sure it’s not. WTF 😕 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/34 "2011-02-11T22:26:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you’re saying that it would be legal for the federal government to force all illegal immigrant to convert to Hinduism? > > Because I’m pretty sure it’s not. Not all rights apply to illegal aliens. Some do. Second Amendment rights don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/35 "2011-02-11T22:26:35Z")
As an incidental note, the dominant member of the Beltway sniper duo was actually born in Louisiana. The accomplice was from Jamaica. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/36 "2011-02-11T22:26:51Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > WTF 😕 I think **Miller** is saying that illegal immigrants have rights under the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/37 "2011-02-11T22:31:15Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I think **Miller** is saying that illegal immigrants have rights under the First Amendment. Too bad the string of quotes he jumped in on were referring specifically to the Second Amendment ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/38 "2011-02-11T22:47:45Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Too bad the string of quotes he jumped in on were referring specifically to the Second Amendment And too bad you all started this pointless hijack in the first place, given that the Second Amendment is _completely and 100% irrelevant to this story_. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/39 "2011-02-11T22:53:37Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > And too bad you all started this pointless hijack in the first place, given that the Second Amendment is _completely and 100% irrelevant to this story_. Ohhh, Lets see… An illegal alien committing murder with a firearm AND Wishing the victims had been taking advantage of their Second Amendment rights in order to protect themselves, and family members How could I possibly think those related to the story :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053/40 "2011-02-11T23:00:25Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Wishing the victims had been taking advantage of their Second Amendment rights in order to protect themselves, and family members > > How could I possibly think those related to the story :rolleyes: I have no idea, frankly. Yes, those sentences contain keywords that might make a person _think_ they were relevant if they didn’t speak English, but since the OP is about whether the government should be liable for non-deported immigrants who kill people, it’s hard to imagine anything much more irrelevant than the question of whether the right to legally bear arms applies to non citizens. Since, you know, the only non-citizen in this story murdered people. Which, FYI, is illegal under all interpretations of the Second Amendment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-hope-the-families-of-every-one-of-these-victims-sues-the-federal-government/571053.md?page=3)