# "I identify as an Apache attack helicopter" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175 "2019-06-07T17:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/41 "2019-06-07T22:50:53Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What I always thought was the this “attack helicopter” example lampoons how you can’t change reality no matter what you identify with. > > That is, since we clearly don’t have a way to turn a human being into an attack helicopter (arguably, even with advanced technology capable of doing it, we wouldn’t for practical and technical reasons), someone who wishes very badly they were treated as an attack helicopter is just going to have to deal. > > People aren’t going to call him/her by their preferred pronoun or comment on what amazing missile bays he/she has because it isn’t real. > > Similarly, since we lack the medical technology to really turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man, while it’s understandable that some people wish reality were different, it’s not reality. When they specifically use the phrasing “I _identify as_ an attack helicopter” that explanation doesn’t really hold water - unless they have literally no idea what the phrase “identify as” means, which I suppose is plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/42 "2019-06-07T23:16:46Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What I always thought was the this “attack helicopter” example lampoons how you can’t change reality no matter what you identify with. > > That is, since we clearly don’t have a way to turn a human being into an attack helicopter (arguably, even with advanced technology capable of doing it, we wouldn’t for practical and technical reasons), someone who wishes very badly they were treated as an attack helicopter is just going to have to deal. > > People aren’t going to call him/her by their preferred pronoun or comment on what amazing missile bays he/she has because it isn’t real. > > **Similarly, since we lack the medical technology to really turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man, while it’s understandable that some people wish reality were different, it’s not reality.** Nothing you’ve written here about the intent of the misconceived helicopter analogy hasn’t been said already in the thread. And I don’t know if your last paragraph [my bold] is still supposed to be _recounting_ the intended meaning of the flawed analogy, or if you are stating that you _agree with_ this view. If the latter, all I can say is - it’s based on a gross misconception of what it means to be a trans person, and you should read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/43 "2019-06-07T23:20:39Z")
When people say “I identify as a woman” or “I identify as a man”, that’s just another way of saying “I’d like you to treat me as if I was a woman/man”. And that is pretty simple, most of the time, unlike asking someone to treat you as if you were a helicopter. You know how to act around a human female, you know how to react around a human male. It’s not a big existential mystery, like a talking humanoid helicopter would be. If people insist that men have a penis and testicles and women have a vagina and ovaries, then does that mean if a man gets castrated he’s not a man anymore? If a woman gets a hysterectomy, does that means she’s not a woman anymore? Obviously that’s not where they want to go, because that means you really could change your sex by surgery. And so they go back to the chromosomes. But you know, when’s the last time you looked at someone else’s karotype chart? How do you treat someone with XX chromosomes vs XY chromosomes? You don’t actually look at their chromosomes, do you? You look at their phenotype, and if they seem like they’re acting like a man/woman you treat them as a man/woman. Of course the problem here is that people who reject transgenderism have firm and fixed ideas about how men ought to behave, and how women ought to behave. A man putting on a dress is disgusting, because dresses are for women. But that’s easily shown to be ridiculous, gendered clothing is obviously a social construct. And so “how do you treat someone as if they are a man or as if they were a woman” is serious business, because of course playing the part of a woman is disgusting if you’re a man, and that of course is because women are inferior to men. Scratch a transphobe or a homophobe, and 9 times out 10 you’ve found a misogynist. It’s actually pretty easy to treat a human being “as if” they were a particular gender, without worrying very much about how they look under their clothing, or what body parts they have or don’t have, or what chromosomes they have or don’t have, because people in real life literally do that all day every day. It requires no extra work, because we already do it all the time. Whether they’re really for-real a man, or really for-real a woman doesn’t matter, because treating someone as if they were a woman even though they’re really on an unchangeable metaphysical spiritual level a man doesn’t make any difference. OK, let’s suppose that’s true and you socially interacted with a man in a dress as if they were a woman. And this is horrifying for what reason, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/44 "2019-06-07T23:21:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except **Exapno** is doing the opposite of that. He’s not attacking it as an analogy, he’s taking the statement at face value and pointing out why it’s dumb. To actually attack it as an analogy, you have to recognize the things its analogizing, and explain why they’re different. But there are people who make similar retorts to trans people. “You were born male but identify as a woman? Then tell us when or how you are going to give birth, or menstruate.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/45 "2019-06-07T23:25:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But there are people who make similar retorts to trans people. “You were born male but identify as a woman? Then tell us when or how you are going to give birth, or menstruate.” I like how they say similar things to their own grandmas, and when their grandmas explain that not all women have birth or menstruation in their future, they call their grandmas “dude.” The more I think about this analogy, the more I think the most proper refutation is, “Get the fuck out of here with that lame bullshit.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/46 "2019-06-07T23:30:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But there are people who make similar retorts to trans people. “You were born male but identify as a woman? Then tell us when or how you are going to give birth, or menstruate.” Your point being? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/47 "2019-06-07T23:32:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > When people say “I identify as a woman” or “I identify as a man”, that’s just another way of saying “I’d like you to treat me as if I was a woman/man”. Well, when you put it _that_ way…I find myself disagreeing. Most feminists will say “treat me like you would treat a man” in various circumstances, while never claiming they identify male. Gender identity, on the other hand, is more about, well, _identity_. It’s just a sort of identity which is distinct from physical identity - I gather it’s like having one mind in another body. Like if you were to suddenly transform my body into a female one with a magic wand my mind would still ‘feel’ male to me. They just do it without the wand. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/48 "2019-06-07T23:59:58Z")
Miller, maybe I missed it, but I don’t see you stating what is the right and proper way to address these claims. How about some guidance? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/49 "2019-06-08T00:00:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, when you put it _that_ way…I find myself disagreeing. > > Most feminists will say “treat me like you would treat a man” in various circumstances, while never claiming they identify male. The flaw with this is that, well, I would like to be “treated like I’m an attack helicopter with a full weapons loadout”. Or, in human terms, I would prefer to be treated like an “18 year old Caucasian girl in the top 10% of attractiveness”. But people won’t treat me that way and will argue I don’t deserve it. Similarly, feminists want to be treated like a man…except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man, or face the criminal justice system as a man. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/50 "2019-06-08T00:04:14Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Similarly, feminists want to be treated like a man…except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man, or face the criminal justice system as a man. Cite? Or rather, I’m sure there are better threads for your absurd attack on feminists than this one. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/51 "2019-06-08T00:08:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Cite? > > Or rather, I’m sure there are better threads for your absurd attack on feminists than this one. > **[Feminists weigh in on draft registration for women](https://www.ncronline.org/feminists-weigh-draft-registration-women)** > > Does pursuit of gender equality include support for universal conscription? [https://bust.com/feminism/16574-why-drafting-women-isn-t-gender-equality.html](https://bust.com/feminism/16574-why-drafting-women-isn-t-gender-equality.html) > **[Why feminists need to discuss gender disparity in the criminal justice system...](https://www.statepress.com/article/2016/10/spopinion-gender-disparity-in-the-criminal-justice-system)** > > If gender equity is about equalizing standards for both men and women, feminists need to talk about the discrimination men face in the courts. Here’s some cites. Seems to support my statement and I’m not “attacking” feminists. I am simply pointing out that people who ask for favorable treatment in all areas are by definition asking for others to be treated unfavorably. You can’t simultaneously have favoritism and equality. In many cases, feminists are asking for _favorable_ treatment, in excess of what they would get if the roles were “equal”, in order to make up for what they claim is perceived past disadvantaged treatment. Sorta like affirmative action for women except, you know, we live in a society where more women than men go to college. Or in my examples, I’d want other people to treat me as an 18 year old girl but not be at risk of a sexual assault or groping. Or treat me as an attack helicopter with a full weapons load but not break out the SAM batteries. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/52 "2019-06-08T00:13:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Similarly, feminists want to be treated like a man…except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man, or face the criminal justice system as a man. Not this feminist. A man’s life is not worth less than a woman’s, and I support that if men must sign up for selective service, so should women. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/53 "2019-06-08T00:14:23Z")
And back to the point: at work, we have a coworker who recently gave birth. She hasn’t accomplished much in the last few months. When we talk about it, we kinda tip toe around the issue and give her a pass. “well, she does have her daughter to look after, she may not be fully recovered yet…” If she were a transgender woman, well, with the same scenario she might be put on a performance improvement plan. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/54 "2019-06-08T00:30:29Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > [Feminists weigh in on draft registration for women](https://www.ncronline.org/news/politics/feminists-weigh-draft-registration-women) > [https://bust.com/feminism/16574-why-drafting-women-isn-t-gender-equality.html](https://bust.com/feminism/16574-why-drafting-women-isn-t-gender-equality.html) > [Why feminists need to discuss gender disparity in the criminal justice system - The Arizona State Press](https://www.statepress.com/article/2016/10/spopinion-gender-disparity-in-the-criminal-justice-system) > > Here’s some cites. Seems to support my statement and I’m not “attacking” feminists. I am simply pointing out that people who ask for favorable treatment in all areas are by definition asking for others to be treated unfavorably. You can’t simultaneously have favoritism and equality. None of those cites support your contention that feminists are seeking favorable treatment. The first is arguing that instead of adding women to the draft, the draft should be abolished altogether. The second is arguing that drafting someone isn’t giving them rights, its taking away their rights, and as such drafting women shouldn’t be considered an advance of women’s rights. The last is advocating that more feminists should be interested in sentencing reform - which they absolutely should be, everyone should be - but at no part does the writer directly advocate for unequal treatment of men and women, nor argue that feminism in general is advocating for unequal treatment. Did you even read those before you posted them? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/55 "2019-06-08T00:40:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Miller, maybe I missed it, but I don’t see you stating what is the right and proper way to address these claims. How about some guidance? You could explain why being transgender is not the same as thinking you’re an inanimate object. You could point out the science that supports transgenderism as a legitimate medical condition. You could bring up the statistics about the appalling rate of suicide attempts among transpeople, and the associated studies that find being treated as the gender with which they identify dramatically lowers the chance that they’ll become suicidal. Or you could call them an asshole and tell them to go fuck themselves. But if you engage directly with the helicopter argument - if you go through all the ways they’re clearly not a helicopter, and why it’s a dumb claim from the beginning, you’re being a fool. Because the person making the argument is well aware of the flaws in the argument. The flaws are the _point_ of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/56 "2019-06-08T00:41:50Z")
It’s awfully difficult to imagine the OP is sincerely seeking a actual discussion with this question. ---
**Author:** ![Justy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7cd45c/32.png) [@Justy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justy5)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/57 "2019-06-08T01:00:49Z")
I identify myself as a “Tomahawk Cruise Missile”. Don’t cross me or you’ll get the wrath of me. Blah! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/58 "2019-06-08T01:04:38Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > And back to the point: at work, we have a coworker who recently gave birth. She hasn’t accomplished much in the last few months. When we talk about it, we kinda tip toe around the issue and give her a pass. “well, she does have her daughter to look after, she may not be fully recovered yet…” > > If she were a transgender woman, well, with the same scenario she might be put on a performance improvement plan. Are you saying that if a transgender woman at your workplace experienced a major medical event, and immediately afterward gained custody of an infant for whose care she was responsible, there would not be any accommodations made for her? If so, your workplace sucks ass. If you’re saying something else, how is it the same scenario? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/59 "2019-06-08T01:39:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If a student demands to be treated as a helicopter (or velociraptor, or dump truck), would you treat him as one? On sight I would bark “Gunner, HEAT, Chopper!” _extend my arm out straight towards them and follow their movement for a few seconds_ 'Confirmation friendly, cease fire!" I assume I’d end up in the principals office for constantly saying that I am considering whether to shoot a student down. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/60 "2019-06-08T01:40:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But there are people who make similar retorts to trans people. “You were born male but identify as a woman? Then tell us when or how you are going to give birth, or menstruate.” If a woman has a hysterectomy, is she still a woman, or is she something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175.md?page=4)