# "I identify as an Apache attack helicopter" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175 "2019-06-07T17:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/81 "2019-06-08T19:54:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The objection to “abolish the draft” is that it’s basically saying that it’s okay for one side to put up with hardship, but when it’s the other side’s term, suddenly to needs abolishing. Where are you getting the idea that feminists only opposed the draft when people started talking about including women in it? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/82 "2019-06-08T20:06:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Where are you getting the idea that feminists only opposed the draft when people started talking about including women in it? History textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/83 "2019-06-08T20:07:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Anyway, since we are far off topic: back to the thread question: If you are a teacher or principal and a group of students claim to be AH-64 Apaches and demands to be addressed by the gender pronoun “chop/choppers/choppiness” and have a restroom for helicopters only, what would you do? I would pull them aside and have a come to Jesus talk with them. The points I’d hit in this private conversation would be: 1. I’m not an idiot. 2. You’re not being as clever as you believe you are being. 3. You’re being disrespectful and ugly, in a way that serves no purpose except to make the lives of people around you worse. 4. Since you’re unable or unwilling to control your behavior, it’s up to me now. Continue in this vein of sophomoric satire, and there will be consequences. It ends now. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/84 "2019-06-08T20:26:00Z")
1. Do you identify as a male helicopter or a female helicopter? Use that restroom. 2. Hover over the quad for 15 minutes. If you are unable to do that, then you are a broken helicopter and as such will be scrapped for melt value. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/85 "2019-06-08T20:28:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 1. Do you identify as a male helicopter or a female helicopter? Use that restroom. > 2. Hover over the quad for 15 minutes. If you are unable to do that, then you are a broken helicopter and as such will be scrapped for melt value. Nah. As Miller has said, that lets them set the terms of the debate. And it’s a stupid fucking debate they want to have. Talk about the underlying issue, which is that they’re being dishonest assholes, and that’s what needs to be addressed. (On the INCREDIBLY REMOTE chance that I encountered a student making this claim seriously, with no explicit nor implied smirk, I’d reach out for professional help from someone qualified to help them.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/86 "2019-06-08T20:38:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > First, thank you for the response. > > Unfortunately, you’re serving up the same tired crap that has been proven not to work a million times over. > > No real people use the helicopter identification. It’s just internet tough guy rhetoric. The only thing that works on them is endless, unrelenting mockery. They have thin skins like most bullies. They hate being laughed at. > > That’s not a cure-all, but it’ll sure take you farther than statistics. You’re still not getting it, **Exapno**. I have no problem with mocking and humiliating bigots. I’m all in on that plan. But [this sort of response](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21686196&postcount=11) is not doing that. You’re not mocking the bigot, you’re validating his argument. You are giving exactly the response he wants you to give, because it’s a springboard to, “Hey, you’re right, no amount of wishing can make me be an attack helicopter! And no amount of wishing can make a man into a woman!” You’re not mocking him, you’re being played by him. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/87 "2019-06-08T21:03:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re still not getting it, **Exapno**. I have no problem with mocking and humiliating bigots. I’m all in on that plan. But [this sort of response](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21686196&postcount=11) is not doing that. You’re not mocking the bigot, you’re validating his argument. You are giving exactly the response he wants you to give, because it’s a springboard to, _“Hey, you’re right, no amount of wishing can make me be an attack helicopter! And no amount of wishing can make a man into a woman!”_ You’re not mocking him, you’re being played by him. But…this is factually true. _Some_ day we might be able to grow whole brainless bodies and transplant our entire brains into them, fixing all of the normal dementia and stroke problems that older brains have with genetic hacks with a tool similar to crispr. And also somehow connecting all of the nerves. That day is not today. It’s not tomorrow. It won’t be this decade. It might not be this century. Until then, while we can _understanding_ to people who want to be called “choppers”, and maybe try to force ourselves to use the correct pronoun, we’ll make mistakes. And if “choppers” want to use a particular bathroom, and as part of their coping mechanism they carry a “flight data recorder” with them into the bathroom, maybe we can’t just let them use whatever bathroom they want. Maybe they should have to pee outside because the rights of the other bathroom occupants not to be recorded by a flight data recorder trump theirs. Similarly, if the majority of women want to be free of men, or creatures who were previously determined to be men by medical doctors, in their safe space of a bathroom, maybe their rights trump those of transexuals. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/88 "2019-06-08T21:33:18Z")
Civil rights are human rights. Helicopters aren’t human, they are inanimate objects. I would ask that person to be very clear whether they want to be treated as an inanimate object, and if they understand what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/89 "2019-06-08T21:38:21Z")
Disproving someone’s sincerity could be legally tough. Sure, no one seriously claims to be a helicopter, but all kinds of scrutiny are needed in court or law not needed elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/90 "2019-06-08T21:41:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Disproving someone’s sincerity could be legally tough. Sure, no one seriously claims to be a helicopter, but all kinds of scrutiny are needed in court or law not needed elsewhere. Right, and the “bathroom bills” were a response to the idea that a transexual need not do _anything_ to prove their sincerity. They need not take hormones. Attend therapy. Dress as the other gender. Have any surgery. Change their hairstyle. Essentially, a tattooed biker with a previous conviction for rape could simply declare that he now feels he’s a woman, with no prior history of such desires, and we have to take his/her word for it\*. That we are being discriminatory and bigoted and so on if we do anything but immediately believe what any person says and allow them special privileges at the expense of the “normal” 90-95% of the population. \*the other side of the argument will quickly point out that this doesn’t really happen, which is true, and that a bathroom sign doesn’t protect women from rape, which is also true. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/91 "2019-06-08T21:43:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Disproving someone’s sincerity could be legally tough. Sure, no one seriously claims to be a helicopter, but all kinds of scrutiny are needed in court or law not needed elsewhere. Are you joking? Ask them to do anything that they think an attack helicopter does. Hover over the ground for 9 seconds. Drink a pint of JP-4 fuel. If they don’t want to do what attack helicopters do, then they aren’t sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/92 "2019-06-08T21:45:25Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Are you joking? Ask them to do anything that they think an attack helicopter does. > Hover over the ground for 9 seconds. Drink a pint of JP-4 fuel. If they don’t want to do what attack helicopters do, then they aren’t sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them? Put their penis in a woman (if F-\>M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off. If they don’t want to do what men/women do, then they aren’t sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/93 "2019-06-08T21:54:27Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > If they don’t want to do what men/women do, then they aren’t sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in? This is garbage. Trans people do everything they physically can in order to emulate/become their chosen gender. They take treatments, they change their clothing, they change their mannerisms, they change everything. They risk getting their asses jumped for doing this. Whatever they can’t do, isn’t not for lack of trying. What are the attack helicopter dipshits doing to prove their sincerity? How are they changing? What are they risking? Not a goddamn thing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/94 "2019-06-08T22:04:22Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Put their penis in a woman (if F-\>M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off. > > If they don’t want to do what men/women do, then they aren’t sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in? If you are suspicious when someone claims to be a certain gender, do you ask them to show you a penis, or have a baby, have sex in front of you, expose a breast and give it a good milking, or jerk off in front of you? If someone questioned your sexual identity, what would you be willing to do to convince them? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/95 "2019-06-08T22:19:28Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Right, and the “bathroom bills” were a response to the idea that a transexual need not do _anything_ to prove their sincerity. It doesn’t bother me that you’re factually incorrect. It does bother me that you’re so confident in your ignorance. Seriously, Sam, you need to get better about researching your beliefs to see if they’re real. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/96 "2019-06-08T23:04:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It doesn’t bother me that you’re factually incorrect. It does bother me that you’re so confident in your ignorance. > > Seriously, Sam, you need to get better about researching your beliefs to see if they’re real. Ok, produce a link. I am a transexual student at your high school. I want to use the girl’s restroom. What are the policies so i can use it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/97 "2019-06-08T23:28:09Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Ok, produce a link. I am a transexual student at your high school. I want to use the girl’s restroom. > > What are the policies so i can use it? Just so we’re clear: 1. I don’t teach at a high school. 2. If I don’t produce links that disprove the idea you made up, you’ll keep believing the thing you believe? You’re confident enough in your ignorance that you treat it as a starting position? [Here’s a good place for you to start reading.](https://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/article/trans-restroom-faq) If Sam, identified as male in eighth grade, identifies as female in ninth grade, let Sam use the girls’ restroom. If Tracy, identified as female since birth, starts harassing other girls in the restroom, hold Tracy accountable for the harassment. Same for Sam. Genitalia don’t need to be involved in decisions about harassment. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/98 "2019-06-08T23:39:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Just so we’re clear: > > 1. I don’t teach at a high school. > 2. If I don’t produce links that disprove the idea you made up, you’ll keep believing the thing you believe? You’re confident enough in your ignorance that you treat it as a starting position? > > [Here’s a good place for you to start reading.](https://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/article/trans-restroom-faq) > > If Sam, identified as male in eighth grade, identifies as female in ninth grade, let Sam use the girls’ restroom. If Tracy, identified as female since birth, starts harassing other girls in the restroom, hold Tracy accountable for the harassment. Same for Sam. > > Genitalia don’t need to be involved in decisions about harassment. Thanks for the link. It **supports 100%** the point I was trying to make. **As the link states** , transexuals need not do **anything** to establish their new gender identity. They need not take **any steps at all**. So if they don’t have to do anything but **say** they feel a certain way and should thus have the other gender’s privileges, I demand a fueling depot for my helicopter engines. And if I can’t have that, I should at least be allowed to dump my waste where we dump used helicopter coolant. ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_Raygun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c67d28/32.png) [@Ronald\_Raygun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_Raygun)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/99 "2019-06-08T23:42:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Put their penis in a woman (if F-\>M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off. > > If they don’t want to do what men/women do, then they aren’t sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in? Well, since you aren’t in the other thread, I’ll quote my response there: - Employment non-discrimination - Housing non-discrimination - Ban on conversion therapy for minors - Hate crimes protection - Ban on “trans panic” defense - Medicaid coverage for trans-related medication (many states explicitly ban it) - Medical treatment and protection in prisons - Title IX protection - The ability to change documentation without bottom surgery To be more specific, do you question the gender of gay people? People who don’t want children? Some trans women can induce lactation. Most trans people still masturbate. I mean, you do realize that human gender has a very complex social component and that it touches on much more than fucking, having babies, and raising babies, right? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175/100 "2019-06-08T23:58:37Z")
You want to know how a teacher would react to a student demanding to be treated as if he\* is an Apache helicopter? How about a former teacher? I find it incredibly obnoxious to make the comparison in the first place, but maybe it’s done from arrogant ignorance. So in the interest of fighting that, here goes. Trans people are not asking to be treated _differently_; they’re asking to be _treated the same_ as their identified gender. So a trans student in one of my classes would have been treated as a student, subject to the same rules all the other students abided by in my classroom. A kid claiming he\* identifies as an Apache helicopter would also get treated the same as other students. If I’m supposed to call the kid “Apache helicopter,” and “it,” fine. If I’m supposed to use the third person neutral pronoun, fine. If, however, he wants to take off from his seat and spin on top of other students’ desks, that’s not going to happen. Even if the kid insists he’s a helicopter because of an identified mental health disorder that qualifies under federal law and is on an IEP wouldn’t be allowed to compromise the learning of other students by such disruptive behavior. And as a woman, I find this “feminists want to be treated like a man…except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man” crap insulting, demeaning, and patently untrue. I used to do an activity in my classes where kids gave me their birthday month/day, and I’d tell them what their draft number would have been. We pretended women could have been drafted so the girls could participate. Those with a draft number below 196 (using the 1970 draft lottery) had to decide whether they’d go serve, go to Canada, etc. The girls were not statistically less likely than the boys to choose serving. I don’t throw around the term misogynistic too often, but this type of comment definitely qualifies. \*or she [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-identify-as-an-apache-attack-helicopter/835175.md?page=6)