# I $%^&ing HATE Liberals **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772 "2016-06-07T21:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/41 "2016-06-09T02:11:12Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Because I like delta smelt better than I like you. Confirmed. Like I said, it’s built on human hating nature worship. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/42 "2016-06-09T02:15:47Z")
Actually… I don’t live up there but for the people who live in the bay area… what about the surrounding cities? I’m sure rents and property values have been driven up all over the area as the tech hubs branch out, but just because San Francisco has chosen to stay a living scat hole to push out anyone who can’t afford 4000 dollar a month rent for a studio/2 bedroom does not mean the surrounding areas are so restrictive… So… are they? What about nearby cities? Are any of them allowing more high rises and greater density? Because if so, those could become the new major nexuses of activity. California is still mostly empty land, there is not a shortage of room if they go to the right place, so if not San Fran, can’t they find a place nearby that can expand eastward and northward and southward for greater density, and perhaps even hollow out San Fran a bit aside from the water proximity whores? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/43 "2016-06-09T02:34:10Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Confirmed. Like I said, it’s built on human hating nature worship. This is almost painfully stupid. How do you remember to breathe? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/44 "2016-06-09T04:30:22Z")
Populations will anchor around businesses. SF is home to many employers and BART is set up to funnel people in and out of SF - not around the rest of the bay. There are a few major employers in outlying areas - Oakland, Fremont, San Jose, San Ramon. San Jose is the largest other metro area. Commute just from one area of the bay can be horrendous. For example, there is a BART station in Pleasanton, and one in Walnut Creek. So living in WC you’d think working near another BART station would be great, but nope. You’d have to take Bart through Oakland, then transfer to another train back to Pleasanton. The 15ish miles as the crow flies will take near 1.5 hrs on BART. Driving isn’t much better because traffic is a nightmare. SF has a built in advantage because the local mass transit is meant to get people there. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/45 "2016-06-09T05:10:31Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So to bring it all around, exactly what kind of housing density is needed to give SF “affordable housing” - and how much of the affordability comes from driving down the net desirability of living there? > > It seems to me that adding, say, a third more units would only mean that many more wealthy or well-employed tech weens would move it. By the time you’re to a 50% increase, you’ve got a city that no longer looks or feels like SF - even the radically evolved SF of the later 20th. > > John D. MacDonald, in one of his sour comments about the slow destruction of Florida, once said the population would hit million, at which point people would stop coming because it would be no more desirable to live there than anywhere else. > > But I guess if we cover the peninsula with high-rise housing, the “little guys” would win, right? Adn then whine that they can’t afford to live in Carmel or Coronado… I read recently that in order to have a significant effect on housing costs, one would have to “build another San Francisco on top of San Francisco.” ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/46 "2016-06-09T05:46:41Z")
Have a look at the Bay Area here: > **[San Francisco Webcam List - Updated Regularly - BoatingSF](https://boatingsf.com/san-francisco-webcam)** > > If you're looking for a San Francisco webcam to get a view of the bay or the bridge, we've compiled a comprehensive list with over 10 options! Traditionally, September is the best weather for SF. I moved to SF in 1979. The air was absolutely sparkling. Being surrounded on three sides by water means pretty much constant on/off shore breezes. Somewhere about 2004, smog won. The city has already lost much of its soul. Losing Herb Caen deprived it of the person who taught 3 generations what it meant to be called “San Franciscan”. From little things to large ones, he covered it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/47 "2016-06-09T06:39:31Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Actually… I don’t live up there but for the people who live in the bay area… what about the surrounding cities? I’m sure rents and property values have been driven up all over the area as the tech hubs branch out, but just because San Francisco has chosen to stay a living scat hole to push out anyone who can’t afford 4000 dollar a month rent for a studio/2 bedroom does not mean the surrounding areas are so restrictive… > > So… are they? What about nearby cities? Are any of them allowing more high rises and greater density? Because if so, those could become the new major nexuses of activity. California is still mostly empty land, there is not a shortage of room if they go to the right place, so if not San Fran, can’t they find a place nearby that can expand eastward and northward and southward for greater density, and perhaps even hollow out San Fran a bit aside from the water proximity whores? I’m pretty qualified to answer this. I’m moving out of my San Francisco rental house in a few days to a nearby area. It’s not really a whole lot cheaper anywhere nearby. If you go south of San Francisco, on the peninsula there are some less expensive (not inexpensive) areas, but the most livable places (Millbrae, Burlingame, San Mateo) are not a whole lot cheaper than SF and often more expensive. If you go too far south, you start hitting San Jose and the prices increase again. So, southward you don’t even have the option of a long commute. I have a coworker who drives from Santa Cruz, but that’s insane. North, and you’re in the Mill Valley area. Not cheap at all. Awful bridge commute and no real other option but to drive. East used to be an option, but Oakland isn’t cheap anymore. You can keep heading east into Orinda and the like and it’s somewhat less expensive (again, not cheap) but your drive commute is again, across a bridge and a nightmare or a long BART ride. This is probably the option most of my coworkers take though. West isn’t a good choice. To put this into perspective (and not to brag) my wife and I live with three kids in San Francisco proper until next week and are moving because we are having a hard time saving any money. My rent on a fairly modest 2000 sf 3BR house in a decent (not great, not terrible) neighborhood is 6500 per month. Daycare for each of the kids is, averaged across the kids, about 1600 per month per kid. Until my oldest went to kindergarten we were out over 11K per month on rent and daycare alone. We make very (very) good money anywhere else, but here we are just getting by. My oldest is in kindergarten. For all the shit you hear about SF schools, his kindergarten is fantastic. Except that it’s all the way on the other goddamn side of the city. If you aren’t aware, SF schools work on a city wide lottery system. I would explain it except that no one understands it. Suffice it to say, you put in a bunch of schools where you are willing to send your kid, and they give you an assignment which may or may not be on your list and may or may not be anywhere near where you live, but where you live has no real bearing on the assignment. In our case, our son was assigned to a great school that adds 90 minutes per day to our commute. Honestly, there are dozens of bad decisions that have set this whole thing up. But, I’m not going to fix the problems, so I’m out. San Francisco didn’t seem to want me despite ten years of trying, and I finally give up. I’ll still be in the bay area because of my job, but not SF proper. (Broad brush trigger warning) Everyone who lives in SF thinks that it’s the “new” people who are ruining the city, but they define “new” as “people who moved here one day after I moved here”. SF needs more housing, but no one wants to give up their views or parking or anything else; they want the additional housing somewhere else. For all the complaints about techies, my biggest peeve is the people who moved here and don’t want anyone else to move here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/48 "2016-06-09T06:52:22Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > There’s certainly a species of wealthy entitled liberals who are basically Republican-lite. In fact, we’ll probably have one for our next president. Eminently hatable, but would you rather be in my neighborhood with a disturbing number of “Honk for Trump” signs in the yards? Those wealthy entitled liberals are always only one tax increase away from putting Trump signs in their yards. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/49 "2016-06-09T12:53:16Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > East used to be an option, but Oakland isn’t cheap anymore. Oakland was built as “Millionaire’s Row” by those who made their fortune in the Gold Rush and could afford to move their families out of the insanity of SF and across the Bay. Fun Fact. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/50 "2016-06-09T13:41:03Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Oakland was built as “Millionaire’s Row” by those who made their fortune in the Gold Rush and could afford to move their families out of the insanity of SF and across the Bay. Fun Fact. And its name derives from the fact that it actually was full of oak trees. Not a one of the originals remains. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/51 "2016-06-09T13:48:27Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Honestly, there are dozens of bad decisions that have set this whole thing up. But, I’m not going to fix the problems, so I’m out. San Francisco didn’t seem to want me despite ten years of trying, and I finally give up. I’ll still be in the bay area because of my job, but not SF proper. (Broad brush trigger warning) Everyone who lives in SF thinks that it’s the “new” people who are ruining the city, but they define “new” as “people who moved here one day after I moved here”. SF needs more housing, but no one wants to give up their views or parking or anything else; they want the additional housing somewhere else. For all the complaints about techies, my biggest peeve is the people who moved here and don’t want anyone else to move here. Down south, the mindset is described as: _I got mine, you can live in Riverside._ I hope you find a good place, **Lurker**. I know we went at each other quite a bit in that other thread (and I’m sure I was more snarky than necessary), but best of luck! SF is a wonderful city, and at least you got to live there for a decade. Hopefully, your kids will have a little more room to run around once you settle int he 'burbs. Been living there all my life, and it’s not so bad!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/52 "2016-06-09T14:00:37Z")
Good luck finding a place! For the life of me living in SF proper has zero appeal to me - it seems like SF hates children. With your situation it’s gotta be much cheaper and take less time to live a bit further out and BART in. That’s assuming you work in the city. Best case scenario is you find work outside the city and live near there and say goodbye to going to SF altogether. I personally avoid it when possible. You’ll get better schools, better weather (arguably), better family oriented neighborhoods, cheaper living, more space, etc. As far as going east is concerned, you gotta keep going east past the tunnel. Then go east some more. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/53 "2016-06-09T14:09:10Z")
There’s always Daly City. Kidding!!! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/54 "2016-06-09T14:15:36Z")
Given the terrain (guaranteed regular major earthquakes), I can understand the SF area not wanting to just throw up a few hundred towers to try to solve things like this. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/55 "2016-06-09T14:38:28Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Given the terrain (guaranteed regular major earthquakes), I can understand the SF area not wanting to just throw up a few hundred towers to try to solve things like this. There are building codes to address that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/56 "2016-06-09T14:41:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There are building codes to address that issue. Of course. We’ll make a law, then buildings won’t fall down in a major quake. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/57 "2016-06-09T14:45:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There’s always Daly City. Kidding!!! The peninsula is almost as absurd as the city proper. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/58 "2016-06-09T14:49:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Down south, the mindset is described as: _I got mine, you can live in Riverside._ > > I hope you find a good place, **Lurker**. I know we went at each other quite a bit in that other thread (and I’m sure I was more snarky than necessary), but best of luck! SF is a wonderful city, and at least you got to live there for a decade. Hopefully, your kids will have a little more room to run around once you settle int he 'burbs. Been living there all my life, and it’s not so bad!! 😉 No harm, no foul. I find myself getting dug into threads way deeper than I ever intend to. We found a great house that we’re still overpaying for, but not nearly as much as we would in SF! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/59 "2016-06-09T14:55:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There’s always Daly City. Kidding!!! [Pete Seeger sings] _Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes made of ticky tacky, Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes all the same._[/PSs] ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772/60 "2016-06-09T14:55:48Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Good luck finding a place! For the life of me living in SF proper has zero appeal to me - it seems like SF hates children. > With your situation it’s gotta be much cheaper and take less time to live a bit further out and BART in. That’s assuming you work in the city. Best case scenario is you find work outside the city and live near there and say goodbye to going to SF altogether. I personally avoid it when possible. > > You’ll get better schools, better weather (arguably), better family oriented neighborhoods, cheaper living, more space, etc. > > As far as going east is concerned, you gotta keep going east past the tunnel. Then go east some more. It’s harder because my wife and I work in different regions. I’m just south of SF and she is in Oakland. So, we live in SF despite the fact that neither of us works in SF because it’s in between both our jobs. But, if we move south, her commute becomes harder. If we move east, my commute becomes harder. The further east or south we go to try to get lower prices, then we both have awful commutes. Sprinkle in finding a place for all three kids to go each day that works with both of our commutes and we’re VERY limited with where we can live a reasonable life. I THINK we found the compromise though (not giving away our “secret”!). I’m not saying it should be easy, just that it should be a little easier. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-ing-hate-liberals/756772.md?page=4)