# "I intend to write a strongly worded letter to the White Star Line about all of this", James Cameron's Titanic released 25 years ago today **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [December 20, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818 "2022-12-20T01:19:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/41 "2022-12-21T23:48:05Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > With extremely rare exceptions, dialogue is the _least_ important element of a script. Well, then you must’ve loved Avatar as well! 🤣 And the Star Wars prequels (Young Darth Vader’s pickup line: “I don’t like sand. It’s rough.”). Seriously, there are movies I love because of their wonderful dialogue: Good Will Hunting, Shawshank, Fight Club, Moneyball, Big Lebowski… Heck, I grew up with great lines from The Big Chill, Annie Hall, and Manhattan. And, to be honest, I like some of the dialogue in _Titanic._ . > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > My car got stolen at one showing. Got it back but it was never the same. > > I start to get weepy at the opening soundtrack. Well, of course. Because you’re remembering your car. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/42 "2022-12-22T00:40:31Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I like some of the dialogue in _Titanic._ A woman’s heart is a deep ocean of secrets. But now you know there was a man named Jack Dawson and that he saved me… in every way that a person can be saved. I don’t even have a picture of him. He exists now… only in my memory. I like that. "“BOOM, PLCCCCCGGG!”… Pretty cool, huh? " Pretty much any dialog by Bodine, no. I think it’s his delivery. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/43 "2022-12-22T00:43:12Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > A woman’s heart is a deep ocean of secrets. That’s like deep, man… (Ok, I don’t like that, but some of Jack’s cheeky dialogue I like) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/44 "2022-12-22T00:43:52Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > He chose to make Benjamin Guggenheim show panic when the water was coming in. I took that to mean, “look the rich: for all their nobility, are just babies crying for their mommies at the face of death.” I think this is a really odd reaction. Of course he shows panic at the last moment… he’s human! Whereas the old hugging couple (who are historical figures whose names I don’t know) don’t. And yes, Rose cheats on her fiancee. Who is an awful person. Of the Rich people we actually get to know well, the three main ones are Cal (bad), Rose’s mom (bad) and Molly (good). And of the others we observe, I’d argue that the guggenheims and old-huggy-couple are generally portrayed as noble/sympathetic, and none of the rest do anything notable enough to really be either good or bad. The most damning indictment of the rich-as-a-class is how they aren’t loading the lifeboats sufficiently. Which is, frankly, mainly the fault of the clearly-woefully-underprepared-crewmen. I mean, yes, overall the poor people are portrayed more favorably than the rich people, but I think the main thrust of the class-aware-aspect of the movie is “people of all classes should have equal access to safety equipment and escape opportunities” and a bit of “rich people from the 1920s didn’t know how to have fun”, not “rich people are all moustache-twirling villains”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/45 "2022-12-22T00:50:32Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Whereas the old hugging couple (who are historical figures whose names I don’t know) Ida and Isidor Strauss: > On the night of the sinking, Isidor and Ida were seen standing near Lifeboat No. 8 in the company of Mrs. Straus’s maid, Ellen Bird. Although the officer in charge of the lifeboat was willing to allow the elderly couple to board the lifeboat with Miss Bird, Isidor Straus refused to go while there were women and children still remaining on the ship. He urged his wife to board, but she refused, saying, “We have lived together for many years. Where you go, I go.” Her words were witnessed by those already in Lifeboat No. 8 as well as many others who were on the boat deck at the time. Isidor and Ida were last seen standing arm in arm on the deck. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/46 "2022-12-22T01:14:48Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > and Molly (good) Now, understand, I’m not out to convince anyone. I’m just commenting. I love the movie. I’m not starting a class war with Cameron. 🙂 Although I do think Cameron had a bias that shows through, Molly Brown is known from the Titanic as a take charge person, and she did just that with her lifeboat. She berated quartermaster Hichens, the man in charge of the lifeboat, and made him go back and pick up survivors. Per wikipedia, “After several attempts to urge Hichens to turn back, Brown threatened to throw him overboard.” But in the movie, Hichens tells her to sit down and shut up, and she meekly does. Where’s the unsinkable Molly Brown we all know? Compare Guggenheim’s panic with Jeanette Goldstein’s “Irish Mommy”\*, who, with her children faces death with calmness. Contrast with Cameron’s The Abyss. When Lindsey comes up with the plan for her to drown and have Bud revive her, even though it’s her plan, you can see she’s fighting panic when the water hits her chin. A very powerful scene! I think Mommy and especially her kids would be in a panic, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I would be, too. That water’s COLD and the thought of freezing while waiting to drown…fill me with with such dread. How much does it hurt to drown? I know I’d be wondering as the water slowly comes in, These are choices Cameron made. Cameron also ignored the second class passengers entirely, for reason I suspect are more than for time. He also avoided the Californian entirely. I’d rather have more Californian and less Bodine. 🙂 \*Cameron may have liked third class characters better, but he couldn’t be bothered to give “Irish Mommy” a name! ---
**Author:** ![Galactus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galactus/32/3581_2.png) [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/47 "2022-12-22T03:22:56Z")
Titanic is a fine movie, but if I never heard that god-awful Celine Dion song again, I would be grateful. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/48 "2022-12-22T03:49:29Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > It felt disrespectful to the survivors and the deceased. Oh, and Billy Zane was such a mustache-twirling villain he was laughable rather than intimidating. The special effects were good, but the melodrama was over-the-top soppy, and I usually love a good sob story! I Good points. I also noted that it was indeed a romance aimed at women (that men enjoyed also) where the female cheated on the guy, so that was okay. Because if the woman cheats on the man (in film) it is shown as deeply romantic, but if the man cheats on the woman, he is scum, and the female needs to get revenge. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Rose cheats on her fiance, and she’s the hero. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Molly Brown is known from the Titanic as a take charge person, and she did just that with her lifeboat. She berated quartermaster Hichens, the man in charge of the lifeboat, and made him go back and pick up survivors. Per wikipedia, “After several attempts to urge Hichens to turn back, Brown threatened to throw him overboard.” But in the movie, Hichens tells her to sit down and shut up, and she meekly does. Where’s the unsinkable Molly Brown we all know? However, it was too late. But the film was beautiful, every bit of it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/49 "2022-12-22T05:01:27Z")
_Titanic_ is like Porn. Better with the sound off and fast-forward through the crappy parts. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/50 "2022-12-22T05:48:20Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Compare Guggenheim’s panic with Jeanette Goldstein’s “Irish Mommy”\*, who, with her children faces death with calmness I’m genuinely baffled that you seem so willing to die on this hill. (a) If you want to randomly make comparisons, the Strausses seem like a far more reasonable comparison to the Irish mother (b) And the situations are just not comparable. For the Irish mother, she presumably couldn’t have escaped, but is doing her best to keep her children happy as long as she can, which is incredibly noble. But… we don’t see how she acts when the water actually crashes into the hallway and into her room. For the Guggenheims, they presumably could have gotten seats on lifeboats, but chose not to, presumably on the theory that those seats will then be taken by someone else. Which is also very noble, in a totally different way. But, when they do panic/whatever, it’s when the WATER IS LITERALLY CRASHING INTO THE ROOM, so of course they panic. I just can’t imagine someone who is a huge fan of the real historical Guggenheim, maybe a great great grandnephew or just a fan or something, watching that scene in the movie, seeing the obvious panic come over their faces, and in any way thinking that the film was in the slightest tiny bit being insulting or besmirching due to that shot. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/51 "2022-12-22T06:00:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because if the woman cheats on the man (in film) it is shown as deeply romantic, but if the man cheats on the woman, he is scum, and the female needs to get revenge. Nah, not always. In the ur-romantic comedy Sleepless in Seattle, for example, the hero Sam is already dating Victoria when he gets together with his “destined true love” Annie, the heroine. While we’re in classic-rom-com-land, hero Joe and heroine Kathleen in You’ve Got Mail are both partnered with other people when they fall in love. Johnny Cash in Walk the Line is married when he meets and pursues June. And so on, with all those infidelities and abandonments presented as romantically acceptable, because they’re how the Hero and Heroine get together. The real ironclad rule for romance film seems to be that if you’re a “good-guy” protagonist, and you cheat on the other “good-guy” protagonist, you become scum and you get punished. If you’re a protagonist cheating on a supporting character, though, you can remain a “good guy”, especially if that supporting character is already flagged as a bad person. The gender imbalance is mostly in the fact that a male good-guy protagonist is much less likely to be portrayed in an unhappy relationship with a bad person (and thus “entitled” to cheat on them) than a female good-guy protagonist is. Because being unhappily partnered with a person you don’t respect makes you appear weak and lacking in agency, and that’s fatal for a male protagonist’s heroic image. Female protagonists, on the other hand, aren’t really expected to have strength and agency, so when they’re trapped in unhappy demeaning relationships, they come across as tragic rather than contemptible. Which is the whole point of Rose’s engagement to the arrogant and domineering millionaire Cal in Titanic. It’s supposed to be so sad that this lovely helpless young girl is trapped and stifled in a loveless pairing, and her love affair with Jack gives her confidence and sets her free. So yay cheating, it rescues the heroine from miserable bondage!!! (Her voiceover literally compares her initial situation to slavery, jeez.) If Jack had shown up in the movie engaged to a snooty wealthy young woman, on the other hand, and felt helpless and dependent on her because of his poverty, he couldn’t have been the movie’s hero at all. Because that situation would make him come across as laughably unmanly. In a second-juvenile comic role he might get away with it, and audiences might well root for his cheating on the horrid fiancee and ultimately breaking free of her. But he wouldn’t be seen as worthy of a heroic protagonist role, because heroic male protagonists can’t be trapped in an engagement with a horrid fiancee in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/52 "2022-12-22T06:28:43Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > you seem so willing to die on this hill. Did you even read what I wrote? > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Now, understand, I’m not out to convince anyone. I’m just commenting. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/53 "2022-12-22T08:03:24Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Well, then you must’ve loved Avatar as well! _Avatar_ is a well-crafted large-scale crowd-pleaser, so of course I enjoy it, despite its minor flaws. In an era where studios regularly vomit up crushingly incompetent dreck like _Morbius_ and _Rise of Skywalker,_ and mere adequacy in filmmaking skill has become a fading dream, an ambitious tentpole that delivers on its promise of entertainment deserves respect. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/54 "2022-12-22T09:20:05Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Cameron was so proud of his “rivet counter” accuracy. But yet…he couldn’t get the CG model and the real model to match up? Did any moviegoers at the time actually notice the disparity? I sure didn’t, and I’m one of those cineasts who loves picking nits. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/55 "2022-12-22T15:16:19Z")
As am I, and a _Titanic_ buff from 'way back, and I didn’t notice it either. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Incidentally, during a late night while the movie was being filmed, clam chowder was served to many of the cast and crew, but someone had spiked the chowder with PCP. It’s still not known who was responsible. The story is [here](https://variety.com/2022/film/news/titanic-crew-members-drugged-pcp-clam-chowder-1235465618/) on Variety. Great story! > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > …I just can’t imagine someone who is a huge fan of the real historical Guggenheim, maybe a great great grandnephew or just a fan or something, watching that scene in the movie, seeing the obvious panic come over their faces, and in any way thinking that the film was in the slightest tiny bit being insulting or besmirching due to that shot. As it happened, there was some controversy over the film’s portrayal of one of the liner’s officers: [William McMaster Murdoch - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McMaster_Murdoch#Death) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/56 "2022-12-22T15:52:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > As it happened, there was some controversy over the film’s portrayal of one of the liner’s officers: [William McMaster Murdoch - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McMaster_Murdoch#Death) Oh yeah, Cameron make him out to be really bad. I’d have been pissed. Fun fact No. 1: William Lightoller, the second officer (survived, with many others, by standing on the overturned lifeboat) used his own personal boat to rescue soldiers from Dunkirk Fun fact No. 2: all the foggy breath in the post-sinking scenes was cgi ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/57 "2022-12-22T19:06:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nah, not always. In the ur-romantic comedy Sleepless in Seattle, for example, the hero Sam is already dating Victoria when he gets together with his “destined true love” Annie, the heroine. While we’re in classic-rom-com-land, hero Joe and heroine Kathleen in You’ve Got Mail are both partnered with other people when they fall in love. Johnny Cash in Walk the Line is married when he meets and pursues June. And so on, with all those infidelities and abandonments presented as romantically acceptable, because they’re how the Hero and Heroine get together. > > The real ironclad rule for romance film seems to be that if you’re a “good-guy” protagonist, and you cheat on the other “good-guy” protagonist, you become scum and you get punished. If you’re a protagonist cheating on a supporting character, though, you can remain a “good guy”, especially if that supporting character is already flagged as a bad person. Hmm, Okay, you have clearly gone into this in much more depth than I have. The “rules” for Rom-Coms are a little confusing I guess. > [@Cervaise](#): > > _Avatar_ is a well-crafted large-scale crowd-pleaser, so of course I enjoy it, despite its minor flaws. I would say the most beautiful film of it’s decade… with one of the worst plots. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/58 "2022-12-22T21:55:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hmm, Okay, you have clearly gone into this in much more depth than I have. The “rules” for Rom-Coms are a little confusing I guess. I think I put it more confusingly than I needed to, on reflection. Really, IMHO what it boils down to is the following: - Cheating by a sympathetic protagonist can be shown as not only acceptable but deeply romantic if it serves to “liberate” or “rescue” the protagonist from being helplessly trapped in a toxic relationship. - The protagonists depicted as engaging in this sort of cheating are far more likely to be female than male, because a male protagonist isn’t supposed to be helplessly trapped in a toxic relationship in the first place. That would read as “weak” and “unmanly” and make the protagonist less sympathetic. (I tend to really loathe romantic comedies, with some exceptions such as some of Shakespeare’s and bitter noir variants like Sunset Boulevard, so I have become really good at analyzing how they work and what I think is wrong with them. My views on Titanic in particular would probably constitute threadshitting, but I will admit it’s an amazing spectacle and very good at what it does.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/59 "2022-12-22T23:02:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Cheating by a sympathetic protagonist can be shown as not only acceptable but deeply romantic if it serves to “liberate” or “rescue” the protagonist from being helplessly trapped in a toxic relationship. How does this explain _The Bridges of Madison County_? Or are we off on a tangent? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2022, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818/60 "2022-12-23T03:36:00Z")
I think “lonely unfulfilled spouse embarking on brief torrid affair with love of their life that they will heroically renounce in order not to wound spouse/family” is a pretty well-established variant. (See also: Casablanca, for example.) Again, it’s much more likely that this lonely unfulfilled spouse will be female rather than male, because being lonely and unfulfilled in marriage tends to read as “sad loser” according to stereotypes of masculinity, which makes a male character less sympathetic. There are arguably exceptions, such as Newland Archer in The Age of Innocence. But yeah, I think we’ve definitely gone O/T here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-intend-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter-to-the-white-star-line-about-all-of-this-james-camerons-titanic-released-25-years-ago-today/976818.md?page=4)